Question on mounting the terrarin.

Actually the question asked was how do I bond plaster to styrofoam?

The question that was asked was how to work with plaster and styrofoam, this is what I answered. The question was not list all the reasons why you don't like working in this medium, nor was it which products or methods do you prefer to use instead of working in plaster and foam, otherwise this question should have been posted under Manny's Groundwork thread, where the different methods of groundwork construction are being discussed. I could discuss at length, the pros and cons of working in different mediums, because I have extensive experience in working with a wide variety of  products and procedures, both as a hobby and professionally. But that was not the question that was asked, it was asking how to work with two specific products, styrofoam and Plaster of Paris. Your comments about having problems gluing two or more pieces of foam together and separating plaster suggest a lack of familiarity in working with these materials, since these are standard materials and techniques used successfully by many experienced modelers. Perhaps judgments concerning the suitability of these products are not within your area of expertise. Sorry, but I interpreted these comments as rather flippant.

Certainly there are numerous reasons why people choose certain products and procedures other others, but this was not the topic being discussed.

somenewguy wrote:

Hey, Indy. I just saw your work on ther "...groundwork..." thread. Was that all done with this elmers wood filler stuff. It looks great.

Thank you very much " somenewguy", and yes, yes it's all done with the wood filler, though at times I mix it with ordinary spackle for a lighter,more easily spread texture, but it's tuff to beat it straight from the can. See my posts a few pages back in Diorama  for "In Russian Hands'", & "Russian Machine Gunner in Trench" for some "in process"  pictures using the stuff and let me know what you think. (by the way, my carpet still looks OK

You're plans for your Dio sound really good. Can't wait to see it progress into being. I would urge you to reconsider using at least one figure. (Does'nt always have to have one, but almost!)I' m always looking at Dio's with figures MUCH longer myself.

Here's a shot from my current post in Dio's, a vignette called "Rudolf's Roadside Rant". You can see That Elmers wood filler sculpted to form the dirtwork, AND the cement of the building foundation as well!

The cement was filler, just trowled flat like some real morter. The Ivy is P.E. from Lion Roar.

Happy Modeling !                                    Indy

No worries, Dio'.

I have begun the S'foam base. It is going to be ultra-simple. I will use either my 1/48 Tamiya Panther G or Sturmgeschutz III Ausf. G on a 15 degree or so angle to the long side of the base. I will probably (attempt to) model a dark yellow/browish dirt road and at the front right corner of the tank I have cut and placed S'foam to structure a portion of an embankment. Like in Indies' dio' at the right. I also want to add a road sign from Tamiya's 1/48 set by this small raised bit of earth on the road. No figures. It measures about 6 by 8 inches. Just a small one.

I don't know how it is goint to turn out. I don't know how I am going to exactly paint it either. Would just ABing it and detail/texture painting with brushes do any justice? I will probably add static grass to the higher ground and real dirt and sand to the road.

Kykeon wrote:

I used to build models and dioramas for museums. I have used this technique for dioramas as large as 4x6 feet with up to 1 foot of topographic relief. If you have better methods, go for it. Why am I wasting my time explaining something that obviously doesn't work? It seems it's good enough to sell to The National Park Service, it's good enough for me and my wall of trophies and it's good enough for folks like Sheperd Paine, Bob Letterman and Francois Verlinden...just to name a few...

What an absolutely pleasant answer, especially toward people lavishing compliments and appreciation on one's work. Your RESULTS ARE quite good(of course you know that so nevermind), but your process is(as you had mentioned a number of times) a sloppy mess. Sounds like there could be room for improvement, and plenty of modelers find great alternative ways to do things, some better for some applications than others.

Below on this Forum find a Link for a Thread called "Groundwork" posted by Mansteins Revenge, and take in some very interesting techniques on this subject.

Indy

Kykeon wrote:

I used to build models and dioramas for museums. I have used this technique for dioramas as large as 4x6 feet with up to 1 foot of topographic relief. If you have better methods, go for it. Why am I wasting my time explaining something that obviously doesn't work? It seems it's good enough to sell to The National Park Service, it's good enough for me and my wall of trophies and it's good enough for folks like Sheperd Paine, Bob Letterman and Francois Verlinden...just to name a few...

I don't think you are wasting your time describing methods you have successfully used in the past, and am most certainly not questioning your ablility. I found your post very informative.

However I have had trouble using this substrate in the past (as I have listed) but at no stage said this method will not work. I think somenewguy has a right to know the advantages as well as the disadvantages he may encounter when using this material.

Nor did I say he should not try to use it, or try to dissuade him from going ahead with his plans, I simply put forth my opinion (regarding better materials).

there is a plethora of materials available to be used for groundwork, and if we all shared the same opinions and methods, it would make this forum pretty boring.

after all it is trial and error that makes us better modelers.

HANS ~ The top dio ~ FUNNY ~ is it titled "Oh man ! Just shoot it and put it out of it's misery !"

Actually, there's no title or caption.. It's a diorama of a Bill Mauldin cartoon as is the other one . The CAV markings are the gag.. An old cavalry soldier shooting his "mount" because of the broken axle..

The other one is also a Mauldin piece.  It takes place at Anzio and is captioned, "Thanks.".  The MP in the hole is simply holding up a sign to point the GI in the jeep in right direction without coming out of his hole, lol..

That's fair enough, dio. BBut Kykeon seems to have it down without trouble so I'm going to buils a plain-Jane base for a tank and rack in some data and work from there. If it does turn out to be crap and warp and all that, I will try this wood spackle stuff that Indy seems to like.

Ta guys.

dioramator wrote:

IMO there are better materials available to construct a base for groundwork with.

Northfield

I have had trouble using that material in the past. because it doesn't breathe, I found my plaster drying only from one side, causing it to warp and actually lift away. I have also tried gluing  the stuff (laminating sheets) with white glue, and after 3 days it still was not dry (although there are glues that are said to bond it without attacking it too much). Also if you are using a spirit wash on the finished groundwork, it may seep through and dissolve it.

IMO there are better materials available to construct a base for groundwork with.

Dioramator, I am talking about the former, bubble-breaking packaging foam.

 So. What parts do you roam

camo junkie wrote:

those are some nice dio's kykeon.

Ditto that ! Very Very nice work. I could stand to see more images if you have them and don't mind.

I have to agree Kykeon about the importance of the edges of the build, I was a  custom picture framer for the better part of 12 years and maybe I notice more than most(but not you) that the trimmings are often overlooked, inaccurately dealt with or even dusted with scraps of the terrain elements leaving an otherwise possibly very nice Dio looking pretty tattered or even tacky. Yours look very nice, (presentable anywhere)

The tall frame for this(my first ever Diorama) was homemade from some old used baseboard mouldings and cost next to nothing (should appeal to Hans  ) This was built to size only after I had all the elements and thier tenitive positions worked out. After building it was painted, masked off, and kept safe until the end of the build.(though I used no plaster or anything that messy. This was wood slats, glued & pin-nailed onto the frames inner lip, covered with easily carvable florests foam, then spakle(wall filler)(though some parts such as the enbakments were sculpted with Milliput. Everything was painted using Tamiya paints in the airbrush. Static grass was added using 3M #77 spray glue.   Not the cheapest way, but I got what I had invisioned.

HANS ~ The top dio ~ FUNNY ~ is it titled "Oh man ! Just shoot it and put it out of it's misery !"

somenewguy wrote:

G'day Whilst pondering about how I am going to use my Plaster of Paris in a diorama I suddenly thought of how I am to bond it to the Styrafoam. The only way I could think of doing it was to finish the styrafoam lanscaping, wet the Plaster, paste white glue onto the Styrafoam and then lay down the Plaster. Do you reckon this is a good method? Cheers!

Hi Fellow Adelaide modeler

when you say Styrafoam, are you talking about the stuff that breaks up into little bubbles (used for packaging) or the stuff that breaks down to dust (like florists use to mount flowers)?

This "wet on wet" technique I use is somewhat unique. I don't use brushes, I use disposable polypropylene laboratory pipettes, ...eye-droppers...and drop/squirt very thin, cheap paint onto the still wet plaster. This doesn't bother the dusted-on plaster. This is simply a step to cover the white plaster as easily as possible and conserve more expensive paints for details. Areas that are to be done in static grass are painted dark green, areas of rubble are gray, black, dark red, etc. This is a very messy technique, which is why I don't attach the diorama to the base until it's almost finished.

 After this first painting has hardened, I then come back to do the grass, bushes, trees, rubble or whatever. Most of the textured surface ends up being covered with other materials anyway, but I do this step just in case there are spots that I might miss or intentionally leave as is, this way there isn't a chance of smooth, bald-looking plaster popping out it's ugly face.

Hey, Kykeon

I've been thinking about how you said you paint the plaster groundwork while it is hard but still wet so the colours bleed into eachother. Is this done with a paintbrush? If so, is excess plaster that geys stuck in it easy to clean out? Also, what happenes to the dry sifted plaster on top? Does that get moved around at all?

Thanks a lot!

For bases, I use clear plastic photo frames in 99% of my builds.  They come in various sizes from 4 x 6 to 11 x 14 and can be glued together for any size dio.  Also, the base is hollow, allowing easily made holes for fighting positions, spades, whatever you need to "dig" for... I just line the hole with cheesecloth & paint with white glue... Also, they work well for hiding any wires, power sources, etc, if you use electronics...

I use el' cheapo craft-store picture frames for a base. You need to pick the ones that have a convex profile, or flat, when laying down, not the typical concave ones you would use for mounting a picture, otherwise your diorama will look like it is sitting in a bowl, not a desirable appearance. I just use white glue to bond the foam directly to the glass, but there is a trick. I very carefully measure the inside dimensions of the frame and use my table saw to VERY ACCURATELY cut the foam to fit the frame, leaving just enough room for the side-boards which cover the vertical edges of the foam around the base. Plaster bandage is used to cover the raw-cut foam, to smooth the contours and fill in cracks. As I cover the bandage with a soupy plaster mix, I use a tea strainer to sift dry plaster over the still wet plaster, this creates a granular texture over the smooth plaster surface. I use white glue to add sand, rocks, rubble, etc. I usually cut or drill into it while it is still wet if I want to plant trees, posts, etc. I paint this both while wet and after it dries. I use cheap craft-store or tempera paint while it is hardened, but still wet, to block out large areas of color. Doing this while wet allows the colors to bleed into each other and blend seamlessly. I then come back with the AB to fill in other shades and finish with the usual washes, dry-brushes, etc.

Here you can see the frame and side-boards;

BTW, I test fit the foam and side-boards to the base, but all work is done without the base attached. Forget masking off the base, this is much too messy to survive any masking job, you're just asking for trouble if you do, IMHO. One last point; a lot of guys build great dioramas, but they choke when it comes to the edges, that is why I always add perfectly executed side-boards for a well-groomed, professional appearance.

Thanks for the complements.

Oh, and annother thing, Kykeon. What do you use for your main bases, wood, MDF etc? And how do you bond the SFoam to it?

Thanks mate.

Oh, I see. So the wet plaster just bites into the foam anyway.

Two more questions. When do you paint your plaster? when it is wet or after it has been layed down and dries? And how does styrofoam and plaster take to being drilled for signs and posts etc?

Cheers guys.

Kykeon, those dio's look mighty fine my friend!

For building up a plaster groundwork over a foam core, no need to glue at all. All of my dioramas for the last 20 years have been made with Plaster of Paris over styrofoam, although I cover the foam with plaster bandage first, then plaster over the top. I used to use Celluclay, but once you get used to working with foam/bandage/plaster, you'll leave the Celluclay behind.

I think these stand up just fine;

img][/img]

If you're talking about mounting cured plaster to styrofoam, epoxy or construction glue, like "Liquid Nails" works really well..

If you doing dry plaster in a powder, like for snow, white glue will work...