the hard side of war am i wrong for it?

This hobby is an art form after all, don't forget that. There are some that can convey an idea or an emotion to the viewer very well and those that can't. Some are like illustrators or draftsmen that place the subject down like a matter of fact. There are others that can manipulate the subject to convey action or emotion in a realistic or surrealistic way. Some just do it for fun and that's good, too.

Bad stuff happens in war and traffic accidents happen as well. Should we model those? Let's leave the rememberance to novelists and cinematographers.

Bustedhart personallly i think we have a duty to be as historical or real in our work as possible death is part of war. I also would like to say Mr. Shep Paine one of the most popular modelers has also done death in his dios but in his book stated keep it calm on the blood and gore make sure it is tastefull.

War, So They say :2% boredom 98% pure terror......dont glorify the truth best of luck Andy.

I think more people should depict the horrors of war, when going to a show or a competition one easily gets the impression that most modelers bring tribute to the gods of war.

It maybe a naive tought, but if more people in high places would be confronted to the daily horrors of war, maybe they wouldn't be so quick to decide to sent their countrymen to the other side of the world to die for cause that isn't theirs to die for.

Oh, and please keep in mind that I really don't have the intention of insulting anyone with this remark.

I don't think your wrong for it. I also agree that dioromas with death are needed in historical modeling. As often said before in topics such as this, the objects we build models of were built to bring death and destruction. Showing that death and destruction is a way to put a true perpective on things and I find it nessarity to show the reality of war as long has its done repectfullly.
This last weekend I was at a model show and there was a diorama called "Ambrush" I think. It was of a German Stug whose crew was caught taking a break. Almost hidden in the grass was a dead or dieing German solider. It looked very convincing to me and seemed to be a very good example how to do it. There was almost no blood and what there was wasn't blight red. It was subdued, it was the posture and the face of the dead German that told you what you needed to know.
If you want to do the gory stuff you might be able to do it repectfully but I think it would be very differcult. Its easy to go over broad with it.
Anyway I also vote for you to do it and put up on here so we all can see it.

i agree with all that has been stated here. i believe dios with death are a needed aspect of historical modeling. do not be afraid to show the truth. however blood and gore are not necessarily the way to do it. some have been done very tastefully with amazing power. you have to decide what you wish to show. my vote is for you to do it.

joe

I am reminded of the horrific image of the photograph of a 10-year-old Vietnamese girl burned with napalm, walking naked in the road. There were people all around who let her suffer alone. At least that is the impression I had when I saw the photo for the first time in Time magazine.
I don't think a model of this subject could do more than the photograph. At best it might trivialize the impact of that photograph. Choose the subject well.
I saw a diorama of a Corpman station on Iwo Jima that hit me so hard I began to cry. The suffering was so palpable, and the humanity given in such tenderness I could not stop the tears.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Anthony Yet, if you plan to display your dioramas in the public, say in a model show, I suggest you to take some pre-caution in presenting them.

Indeed, the IPMS national contest Rule 5 (http://www.ipmsusa.org/CH_index.html) stipulates, in part:
The Chief Judge will exclude or remove from competition any entry considered by Contest officials to be inappropriate or offensive to generally acknowledged standards of taste and acceptability.

The following may be entered in the competition or put on display but can be presented only behind opaque screens or similar visual barriers and only where visitors are provided with a fair description, in written format, of the contents of the models behind the screen. This screened presentation covers competitors and the general public, but no person younger than 18 will be admitted except in the presence of an adult responsible for the young person, subject to the provisions of governing local law:

Models or dioramas of historic events (e.g., general dioramas or specific depictions of the result of the activities of the communist Cambodian Pol Pot regime, a Soviet Gulag, or a Nazi death camp) where the suffering of human beings, or the result of a pogrom, is depicted. Where the theme, content, or subject matter of presentations is graphic or would violate any provision of part A of this policy, the presentation is prohibited in any setting.

So, if you're planning on entering any regional or natinal (and that will be in Atlanta in 2005) contest, you should consider carefully how you depict your figures.

Dead men have indeed died in vain if we the living refuse to look at them and the sacrifice they gave.

Dead men have indeed died in vain if we the living refuse to look at them and the sacrifice they gave.

I agree with everyone. It would be a shame for us modelers not to show the grim consequences of war. We can't make everything all sugar-coated and nice. I don't mean we should always use gore and destruction, because there are some good ideas for dioramas that don't require all the destrucion. Death is a vital part of what we modelers try to emulate in our dioramas and models. Go for it. Hope it helps.

Unfortunately, war always comes with death and destruction. Therefore building dioramas with dead soldiers or falling soldiers is normal. If you are building it for yourself, I think you should go for it.

Yet, if you plan to displace you dioramas in the public, say in a model show, I suggest you to take some pre-caution in presenting them. Modeling death in a diorama might involve certain gore and bloodshed. If this is present in a overly exaggerated way, it could generate replusive feeling on viewers.

I can give you an example.

Back in 1981, I attented a public model show in Hong Kong. There were several dioramas involving death soldiers. Most of them were presented in professional way. However, there were four of them that are so disturbing and controversal that they were ordered to be removed. Why? It was the gore and bloodshed involved were so exaggerated and eccentric that most viewer could not stand. They can be described as following

1) This one contained two Airfix 1/32 soldiers, one Japanese and one British. The scene showed a Japanese beheaded a British soldier during the fall of Singarpore. The red paint(blood) used was overwhelm. Way more than it should be.

2) This one also contained two 1/32 figures, one Japanese and one GI. This scene showed the Japanese soldier bayoneted th GI to death. Not only the gore was overdone, the modeler also scratch built the guts and internal organ of the GI. Again that was totally unnecessary.

3) The scene in this one showed a German Panzer 38(t) ran over a Russian solider. You can imagine the gore involved. The Russian soldier collapse was scratch bulit(by some putty or plastic sheet I assume).

4) This one showed Alien(yep, the space monster in the movie Alien) ate up a human being. Well you could see Alien holding broken human arm and leg on it's hand and on the floor with a human broken skull with brains smashed(made by plaster)

All four dioramas were built by the same person.

The officals in the show considered these four doramas, built by the same person, should not be showed to public due to the graphic nature. and I agree. There is a difference between showing horror of war and using exaggeration in gore to gain attention. That is why movie like 'Saving Private Ryan' and 'Passion of Christ' are prasied and movie like 'Toxic Averger' is critized. It is the intention of the builder we should forcus on.

Furthermore, that modeler was insensitive. Expecially, showing diorama #1 and #2 in Hong Kong where the Japanese troops committed lots of atrocities during the war.

It was very sad. I had seen this modeler's dioramas before they were removed. I can tell he was a very talented young man. He surely did not had to do this(boy God know how many bottles of red paint) to gain attention.

Fortunately, the above is only a very extreme case. Most of the dioramas I have seen are presented in a professional way with resonable gore. Andy, I am confident you are a professional and mature modeler like all of us. When you complete your diorama, show it to us. Thanks.

I say DO IT!!!!
Make sure it satisfies YOU first, and don't worry about what everyone else may or may not think. It's your expression, not theirs.. This is the essence of art.

Just skip the blood and gore-I saw a Sherman dio with a crewman helping a fellow out of the tank with one of his legs blown off-stump, blood et al. It was a beautiful model but unnecessarily gorey-at least to me.

Just an idea for you here , if you are going to have blood in it ... tamiya red clear is so convincing , it would have convicted OJ simpson !

Death is a consequence of war. Don't be afraid to show it.

never convince yourself you cant do anything that is a fact of life. its easy to make death tasteful. a friend on armorama did a panzer grenadier with a bullet hole through his hand to his helmet and it looked really good but still tasteful. anyone that has seen anything military has most likely seen death. the only war without death could have been the cold war, but even then people were killed.. im sure spies were caught and stuff behind the scenes. its not fair to leave death out of war. otherwise people may think it glamorous. it makes modeling more real that way...

I don't know about you but I always model for myself.I model what I like and how I like.If you wish to do a dying soldier,then do it.It's not like your going to hold someone and force them to look at it.The only time it may be a problem is if you want to enter a competition and then your at the mercy of some judges idea of right or wrong.I don't agree with someone telling me my idea for a dio is wrong as long as I'm not trying to depict an actual historical scene.As long as it's my idea,and it comes out the way I wanted it to,how can someone tell me it's wrong.Our creativity is not yet controled so go for it.If someone finds it offensive,then don't look.
Good luck and hope you post some pics for us.

hey guys thanks for the support, I modified a Tamiya figure with all sorts of body parts to get the right pose. Hes cluching his stomach from a womb and hes propped up draging himself to help, I havent figured out how i want the rest of the dio to go yet but i have nothing but time so i hope it works out right, I didnt plan to make it too gorey just alil blood and that was about it. But i do appericate the advice

It happened therefore it can be re-created. As long as it is tasteful I suppose.

Renarts hit the nail on the head about the dying and especially the dead. The dead human body does not look like a maniken lying down. Asleep is the the closest, but aleep looks relaxed. Sudden, violent death is something else, relaxation coupled with with gravity. At death, every joint is loosenrd into the positon gravity dictates. Seen it first hand before anyone else except maybe the truck druiver wo hit her and ran did.
On most figures you buy, gravity is working head to foot. Foold hang own in that direction, and laying a standing figure down will look completely wrong, though you may not immediately see it. If the figure has not been sculplted prone and relaxed , you have a lot of work ahead of you. FLesh tones will have to be much more waxy and pale than a healthy upright figure.

I had the same problem with thinking about doing Gestappo or SS models. Those guys are just so cool with how professional they look and their jet black uniforms and all that stuff but I had to remeber what they did. Even though modeling death and SS is kind of the same in that bolth subjects deal with the darker side of war, death can be alot more tasteful. Numerous heros have fallen and should be remembered; I'd say go for it. And renarts, nice words man and if you were the guy that did the dio of the two midevil guys with axes duking it out and won the prize at some modeling convention, good work, those are awesome, if your not, then sorry for the rambeling.

I am curently building a USMC dio of retreat from Chosin and it includes dead and wounded Marines,, as combat vet I dot like the thought of recreating bad memories but u r right it is a part of combat,,
Here is a thought My point with my dio is show MArines don't leave their dead and they did carry them out of the Chosin, so my 'passed' Marines are wrapped in tissue paper ponchos, the death is actually more impied than shown,, I hope it works,, Also the wounded are to tell the story of taking care of our own and I am using modified Verlinden, Warrior & Italeri figs to show this..Good luck and model what you want ,,It is your hobby! My only advice would be like Shep Paine's go easy on the gore and blood, And use a brown with some red mixed in for the blood ,,it looks more realistic..Happy Modeling

your in the right, if you want to show how terrible war is, then thats exactly what you want to do, and even if u dont, but just want a dio like that, your not wrong in my opinnion.

In war only the dead are at peace. Go for it, you can not make an ommelette without breaking an egg. We depict the result of politicians mistakes and megalomania and have to highlight the suffering of inocents.

Andy, I did a dio with 2 dead German soldiers in it. I even posted it here and nobody has complained to me yet.

Also, why worry? How many OSCARS did Saving Private Ryan earned? Lot's of blood and dying soldiers there, too. And we even enjoyed the movie.

Go for it.....death and war go hand-in-hand.....you're building history, and I don't remember a time where death wasn't a part of history!!

The way I see it is that we are recreating history or at least the ideal of that era that we model. Death happened and did alot. I see no problem with showing this in a diorama since it is part of the story. It's no worse than the hundreds of deaths that everyone sees on television every week. I say go for it and if someone don't like they can always walk away.