Souvenir

ajlafleche wrote:

but Germany was not seen in the same way as Japan. There was little concern over the Holocaust since the victims were Jews and at the time,

ajlafleche, this not true. when the full horrors became known there was huge concern. I was around at that time and I know how it affected me and I am not a jew; but then we we are in Europe!.

Kelly_Zak wrote:

...As far as the flag, I really don't care any more, at first I was apprehensive about putting them into scenes, but now I'll just put 'em in. If the scene calls for it, I'm gonna do it, be it a new flag or a torn and tattered one in a building ruin. Millions of them were made and all over the place, so it's probably not going to be uncommon to find them everywhere, Allies looking for souveniers probably found them the most. Yes the swastika is pretty much the main symbol of pure evil, rightly so, but let's face it, we're modelling history, and that symbol was a big part of that time. Does anyone scream if someone does a dio with a flag of the Rising Sun? Not really.

Yup, modelling scenes like this is intended to portray - whether actual or imagined - a scene inspired by historical events.  The symbols - flags, uniforms, etc. - are keys to the imagery.

As a bit of a side-smack... it's not the same as modelling overly graphic gore, or another "raping and pillaging" in the worst and literal senses of the word.  Those things would definitely be uncalled for re-creating, I  think.  A bit of blood and hints of injury, but beyond that... especially NOT the latter.

It's enough to be kept aware of those graphic atrocities without the imagery revisited.

Hi guys,thanks very much for the comments and sorry for not replying right away,been putting the finnishing touches on another wwII Canadian dio. For the rubble and debris I use a combination of brocken up brick coloured pottery plant pots,the tiny ones from Micheals,real smashed up brick,real dirt from a construction yard,various light and dark sands and soot from a chimney,lovely stuff to use! I use all of these to give colour and contrast to the ground cover around a destroyed building.I also add in bits of wood scooped from a local flower bed.Don`t forget to cover whatever your smashing with a rag to stop the fragments from hitting you in the face and to also collect all the dust and bits,very important stuff! Have fun!

I think it's great.  I'm trying to pull off a rubble dio also, but I don't think I pulled it off as well as you did.  What did you use for the rubble and derbis?  Great work, and nice highlighting on the figures!  Nice panther too! 

 

And to the side topic, blood and nazi subjects are always areas of controversy...  I remember Shep Paine made a dio of an 88 crew operating their gun in a blown out church (it's in his dio book).  He said he got marked down in a show or something because the judges did not like the idea of Nazi soldiers with an anti tank gun operating in a church.  But the truth is, battles were fought in the farm fields, houses, and yes churches...  And history is what we try to reproduce, good or not.

Well I think it's a pretty good dio, have the same sort of idea for a Tiger Tank on an angle like that...***sigh...**** someday!

As far as the flag, I really don't care any more, at first I was apprehensive about putting them into scenes, but now I'll just put 'em in. If the scene calls for it, I'm gonna do it, be it a new flag or a torn and tattered one in a building ruin. Millions of them were made and all over the place, so it's probably not going to be uncommon to find them everywhere, Allies looking for souveniers probably found them the most.

Yes the swastika is pretty much the main symbol of pure evil, rightly so, but let's face it, we're modelling history, and that symbol was a big part of that time. Does anyone scream if someone does a dio with a flag of the Rising Sun? Not really.

 

I think this dio is excellent, wish I could produce something half as good as that. Your work is a real inspiration to me.

Darren.

I think the advice was given based on his experiences as a judge at shows and just pointing out what they look for and giving his honest opinion of how to address a few things to make it a medal winner.

BTW, I like it. Nicely done.

Excellent thread guys,thankyou!

Not to mention there was an huge German (and Germanic) population in the US. And let us also not forget American President Roosevelt and General Eisenhower. Couple of good Irish names there!

Sadly the use of the swastika has been forever tied to the Nazi party, and as such has become a symbol of hate and is banned in many otherwise free thinking countries. To me that's a shame that dilutes our freedoms, and is nothing more than an attempt to white wash history (ie selling models of German WWII warbirds sans swastika), as if not using the symbol can protect us from future injustices.

Ross, don't be put off by ajlafleche's "nit-picking", he has an accomplished eye for detail and meant the criticism to be taken constructively. He ran the risk of offending you not for his kicks, but as an attempt to take your already excellent ability to a extremely high standard.

Fish-Head Aric wrote:

One thing I have often wondered... Nowadays, since the end of WWII, the whole exposure of the Nazi regime's terrible atrocities against humanity have been quite obvious.  As such, the Nazi flag has been well-branded as a symbol of terrible evil.  However, during WWII did people view Nazi Germany the same way?  Or was it an attitude of extreme distaste for the over-ambitious intent to conquer everything they could?

During the war, there was much more hatred of the Japanese than the Germans for a number of reasons. Many peoplpe thought the Japanese were trying to negotiate peace when Pearl was bombed. The treatment of allied POW's was much harsher by the Japanese than the Germans. Also, the Japanese looked different from most Americans. Hitler was hated and Nazism was seen as bad, but Germany was not seen in the same way as Japan. There was little concern over the Holocaust since the victims were Jews and at the time, there was still a great deal of anti-Semitism in the US and the west in general. The sybol of hte German style Swastika eventually became associated with evil as the full scope and inhumanity of the Third Reich came to light.

As to Russ's Swastika here, he got it right form the reverse side of the flag. The Swastika appears "correct" on the obverse but is a mirror image on the obverse. If it were not like this, the Swastica, being black on white, would have appeared a window pane if there was any back lighting.

Kinda like the one of the soldier going on the portrait of Hitler, right?   just kidding...

no no no. I wasn't referring to anybody here. Not at all. I was just commenting on his comment about how he recieved so many negative comments and such from the uninformed about his previous diorama, the one with the kiosk and such. Sorry if I made it sound like I was accusing somebody here of that. As modelers and historians, we know better than that, that these are just depictions of history, not some sort of political statement.

Again, all apologies if my statements were misunderstood.

Well this is going to happen if you drive a tank down a city street. Nice dio.

ummm... did I miss something?  I don' see no hatred and such as I glance over the feedback...

At my first looksie of the pics, I thought it was overall a very nice spread for the casual observer, definitely worth putting in most public views for conversation and mind-stimulating.

During wars the idea of collecting souvenirs such as flags and such of the enemy is a commonplace scene, and definitely much more mundane and acceptable than, say, ears and fingers of the slain enemy combatants (which was also not-so-rare). 

I did notice the swastika looked off-ish, and think the "constructive criticism" for the purpose of serious competition was very interesting.

One thing I have often wondered... Nowadays, since the end of WWII, the whole exposure of the Nazi regime's terrible atrocities against humanity have been quite obvious.  As such, the Nazi flag has been well-branded as a symbol of terrible evil.  However, during WWII did people view Nazi Germany the same way?  Or was it an attitude of extreme distaste for the over-ambitious intent to conquer everything they could?

I ask that, because it would definitely affect the attitude of the soldiers such as the ones in the diorama when considering taking up a flag and saving it for "Brother Bob in the States."  Post-WWII American attitude definitely sees the swastika as a symbol of evil, and anyone possessing items bearing it would likewise be suspect to some sort of scrutiny for wanting to own such a terrible thing.  But I would think it may well be that "Joe Soldier" took up the flag as a trophy and nothing more, probably not knowing the true nature of the political forces that designed and pressed their agenda on the world.

It never ceases to amaze me how people will read their own prejudices and petty hatreds into something as benign as a model. I have had accusations of being a neo-nazi just because I have a few Finnish aircraft from WW2 with their light blue swastika. Gods forbid I build a JU-88 or GO-244 or any German plane because of the tail markings.

Which leads me to another point......Why is it considered ok to produce models with the Finnish or Latvian swastika, but any German aircraft made now, virtually all do not have the tail markings included? Not a real question, just a random thought.

Sorry for hijacking your topic.

Still think your dio looks pretty cool!

 

I did an earlier dio/vignette of a dispatchrider in Germany just around the time when the Allies started bombing German targets,it was a little street scene with a news kiosk,nazi parade banners and pics of Hitler on the kiosk. That vig took so much heat that I`ve stopped showing it in public,so yeah I knew it was backwards and I purposely left it like that to hopefully avoid all the crap I went through with the other one.One other point is I chose the flag as the souvenir because after the guys were placed and glued down that soldiers knee was sceaming for something to be draped over his knee to the ground and as I was painting it and it was the right way I said to myself,oboy,here we go again,so I redid it as you see it now,lol!

did you draw the swastika backwards for political reasons?

WOW,guess I wouldn`t get very far with inconsistant shirtsleeves and questionable pockets,thanks anyway AJ,think I`ll stay and compete in my neck of the woods,folks here tend to be a little more lenient in their spirit of constructive criticisms,have fun building models!

sasd wrote:

tryin to get a few pieces built for an upcoming show/comp in September,.

I wasn't going to say anything, but since you're planning to show and/or copmpete with it, let me give you an experienced judge's perspective. Overall, construction and painitng are good. In general, the figures don't seem focussed to a single story, they're all lookoing in differnt directions, while the second guy from the left seems to be talking intently to someone, there's no one loooking back at him. The guy with the rolled up sleeves is problematic on two levels. First, he's in rolled up shirt sleeves and everyonoe else has jackets on, making him look out of place to the story. More importantly, he's wearing a Vietnam era uniform. The cargo pockets on the radio guy look more modern than the setting, biut I'm not sure about that. His pose looks like he's taking cover and calling is arty or air support. What I'm saying, he conveys a sense of action inconsistent with the rest of the scene. I know it's hard to paint the sharp[ angles and stright lines of a swastika and I give you credit for trying. But the flag is a really weak element in the scene. A helmet, even one with a hole it it, would make a much stronger statement and play into the pensive pose of the guy holding it.

I hope you take this in the spirit of constructive criticism that it's given.

Al

Thanks Zephyr1956,tryin to get a few pieces built for an upcoming show/comp in September,just 6wks away guys,July`s almost bit the dust! Thanks again Zeph,glad you liked it.

just two words.....Very Nice!

Thanks Stindle,this one took alot longer to finish than was intended,cool ideas kept poping up!

Looks great!  Looks very alive if you know what I mean :)