First diorama idea, Normandy Hedgerow Ambush

Wow, that is interesting to know that there has been shermans seen in Iraq, just a little weird sounding.  And I understand your point, that just because it was there doesnt mean it was used, I read many outdated vehicles were used for police duty or other non military purposes.  I have been thinking about putting it in a diorama set in early ww2 Poland, or posibly North Africa, which wouldnt be a bad choice since the 5 included figures are Africa Korps.  Its just that Im getting pretty far on this diorama set in Normandy, and I think that a old, beat up tank would really fit the part there, but your completely right, I dont want to sacrifice realism just for what might look better.  So ill probably just build a different german AFV for this diorama and make another of the panzerkampfwagen II.  HeavyArty, thanks for keeping my ideas from getting out of control and unrealistic, plus I learned some interesting bits of history through your posts.  Thanks everyone, Ill probably have pictures of the diorama so far tomorow.  Its still in the basic terrain shaping and placement stage, so know that it will look a lot different painted, flocked, covered in static grass, foliage, etc...

The two above pics don't really prove anything.  In Iraq, I found all sorts of old vehicles, to include Sherman tanks, an FT-17 (as above), and lots of other old British and US tanks and AFVs.  Just because they were there, doesn't mean they were being used to fight from.  I can show you the same type pictures with US soldiers climbing on them too.  Just because a vehicle was in the area doesn't mean it was being used.

 

If you are so set on using a Panzer II, why not just make it in Poland, N. Africa, or Russia, all areas where they were heavily used?  That would be more feasible.  But do as you will, it is only history.

Heavy Arty, thanks a ton for your research, all im asying is that Im not basing my idea of guesses and opinions.  And fockwolf, yes Im very grateful for the research, it was a huge help.  And also here are two photos, which in my opinion are fairly good proof of the posibility.  The first just shows that even weirder/older vehicles than the panzer II were encountered in Normandy by the allies.  The second, is a picture of a panzer II in France, 1944.

 On October 1 of 1944, there were total of 386 Panzerkampfwagen II tanks in German service but following this month no more reports about available Panzerkampfwagen II tanks were made. The only Waffen SS units to be equipped with Panzerkampfwagen II were Panzer-Grenadier Division Leibstandarte, Das Reich and Wiking fighting on the Eastern Front. Leibstandarte received its first Ausf F tanks in late 1942 but by spring of 1943, all were withdrawn from service. Panzerkampfwagen II also saw service with Germany's ally - Slovakia. It is an unconfirmed rumour that probably after the war few saw service with Lebanese Army (probably from Romania

The final development of Panzerkampfwagen II was Panzerspaehwagen II Ausf L Luchs (Lynx) - Sd.Kfz.123 (VK 1303). This light reconnaissance tank was produced by MAN and Henschel (small number) from September of 1943 to January of 1944. An order for 800 was made but only 104 (some sources state 133) were manufactured (chassis number 200101-200200). MAN developed the chassis and Daimler-Benz the superstructure and turret. Luchs was a development of VK 901 (Ausf G) and used its modified suspension and hull. It was powered by 180hp 6-cylinder Maybach HL66P engine with ZF Aphon SSG48 gearbox. Luchs weighted 13 tons and had road range of 290km. Four men crew consisting of commander, gunner, driver and radio-operator operated Luchs. Communication equipment consisted of FuG12 MW receiver and 80-watt transmitter. The communication between the crew was by the use of the intercom.

This light reconnaissance tank saw service until the end of the war on both the Eastern and Western Front with Panzer-Aufklarungs-Abteilungen (armored reconnaissance detachments) of Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS. Reported users include 116th Panzer Division on the Western Front and 3rd, 4th and 6th Panzer Division on the Eastern Front. It is reported that 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf and 5th SS Panzer Division Wiking fighting on the Eastern Front also used Luchs. Vehicles sent to the Eastern Front were mounted with additional frontal armor plate for increase protection. Small number was fitted with additional radio equipment and antennas and served as reconnaissance communication vehicles. Luchs was to be eventually armed with (Luchs 5 cm) 50mm KwK 39 L/60 gun (VK 1602 Leopard) but only variant with 20mm KwK 38 L/55 cannon (with rate of fire 420-480 rounds per minute) was produced. The 20mm cannon was fitted with TZF6 optical sight. It is also reported but not confirmed that 31 Luchs were mounted with an open-top turret armed with 50mm KwK 39 L/60 gun and began arriving to the troops in late 1943. i got this fromthe web sight Achtung Panzer!   fockwulf                                   hope this helps

Build it as you want, but...  Not sure where you read that Normandy was where they dumped outdated and obsolete equipment though.  It was not.  (Now I see where you got that; in your post in the Armor Forum, read it again, that is not what he means.  Obsolete equipment was left there from when France was the rear area after they were worn out and non-operational, not for combat duties.)  The Germans expected an invasion from the English Channel during the summer of '44.  Due to this, Field Marshal Rommel and his best panzer divisions were sent to defend the French coastal areas.  Granted, they thought the invasion would come at Calais, not up the coast at Normandy, but the whole area was full of first rate Panther (Pz 5) and Tiger (Pz 6) tanks, not obsolete Panzer IIs.  Like I said, build it as you like though, its your diorama.

i know a video game is no solid reference what so ever.  I did some of my own research, and discoverd normandy was the number 1 dump for obsolete axis war vehicles or captured allied ones, or anything else not reliable enough to send out in the front line.  I also discovered, while they were not constantly used as reliable support, multiple Panzer II's were used in normandy 1944 wherever a stronger vehicle could not be spared, often on scouts/patrolling or just sent to the front line, hardly expected to do any damage, but better than nothing.  According to multiple websites, panzers II's could even be found in 1945, though in very rare circumstances, and in terible condition, as they had been discontinued, and many even modified with other types of turrets mounted on their chassis.  So Im sorry if it seemed I was just guessing, but I have been putting lots of time into the planning off this diorama.  I am also going by posibility intstead of plausible.  I know Im only 14 so I cant have any real clue what war is really like, and Im sorry if I insult any veterans, that isnt my intentions.  That said, In my opinion of war, just because something isnt likely doesn't say at all that its not going to happen.  Also, you make do with what you have, not what you need.  If you have a shining new new Tiger tank and and escort of filled Halftracks, obviously you will use it, but if all you have is a rust covered, outdated, machine gun turret mounted on a discountinued chassis covered in bullet holes and blast marks, you would be wise to take it in many situations.  As I said, I am sorry if I mis-portrayed war, I was just saying, that my researching has led me to beleive it is possible that a panzer II was their, any unlikelyhoods aside.

Oo im sorry i meant Call of Duty 2 i sorta had my mind set on the third one my bad.

Well when i play my Call of Duty 3 game ...

That is a real good historical referance.

  The PzKpfw II was pretty much retired from front line units or destroyed by that late in the war.  Don't think you will find that any were at Normandy.

"The Pz Kpfw II was phased out of service with tank regiments late in 1943 but remained in service with various Panzer units on secodary fronts until the end of the war."   Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War II

Your best bet would be to do some real research and figure out what is historically plausible and what is not.  Throwing out ideas with no clue to their accuracy and then going on the advice of others who have no clue is not the best method for making a historically accurate dio as you seem to be trying to do.  Good luck.

Wow, lucky, Call of Duty 3 hasn't even come out for the United States yet.  Anyways, the first and second one tended to be realistic, so that information, along with some websites and advice from other forum members suggested that it is very posible that a panzer II could be used for this scene, as a salvaged scout vehicle.  I have almost everything on the diorama ready for a coat of sand and gravel (texture) before a base coat of black.  Right now im just working on detail.  I have, fuel drums, a signpost, a stack of chopped wood, some tree stumps and fallen logs, the ruins of an old famrhouse, part of a knocked out sherman, barbed wire, sand bags, entrenchments, hedges, fences, and of course the bridge over the water dich.  Ill post pictures of it so far as soon as I finish the farm house ruins.

Well when i play my Call of Duty 3 game there is a level were your on the  point beach head and you are a ranger and theres a mission were you have to defend the point and there is a panzer II that comes up and attacks you.

Well, I originally planned to use a halftrack, any kind, i was just going to research whatever would actually have been there at the time, but now i really want to use a panzerkampfwagen II, shown above with an africa Korps paint scheme, but i cant figure out whether or not they were used in normandy as well. does anybody know?

Ian what kind of Halftrack are you planning on building for the Germans in this diorama? Is it going to be tamiyas Hanomag or one of Dragons 251/1.

Alright, thanks thats good to hear those figures could be used, And the ideas for building ruins was a good one, but i may go for sctratchbuilding, just to see how it turns out and if I dont like it ill just throw it out and use pre made ones.  And yes i am going to put lots of thought into my figure placement, not just throwing them in where they look like heroes.  So any ideas on the panzerkampfwagen II?  I know it was only used early-ish in the war, as it was replaced by the panzer III, atleast thats what i thought from what I read about it.  So any ideas if it would have been in normandy at the time?

 

By the way, Thanks for the idea about the halftrack coming back to set off the charges on the bridges, but the one i have in mind is just a small arched platform with sides over a water filled ditch, more for convenience than neccesity, not the kind of thing people would waste time demolishing.

you can pick up some nice verlinden sets for around $15 i picked up kit # 189 which is a normandy farm ruin and  #328 normandy village ruin and they aren't that expencive and as far as the figures go they should work if you put them above the half track on a rise that way they would have a good field of fire shooting down into the halftrack where they would have been exposed.  and a few hand grenades would have ruined there little party in the halftrack finished off buy some flying lead.  as a former ranger we had to take care of business with what we had not with what we needed  so use what you have if you place them in the right places it will look fine

i would place 2 figure down by the bridge near the water as if they are traped there with the halftrack heading towards them and place the others above and just ahead of the germans with grenades ready 

i am thinking that the bridge could have been set to blow by the germans and the halftrack is comeing bact to set it off. they were trying to hold off the allied advance and that did mean blowing any bridges that the allies would have used to advance heavy equipment   good luck

               fockwulf

Wow, thanks for the detailed instructions, im defiantely going to try some of those hedgerows!  today I bought some supplies, balsa, air drying clay, some paint i was out of, and a couple other things.  I was tempted by the toy oxen, since it is going to be normandy, and it would have looked great dead in a field, maybe even guys hiding behind it.  Anyways, im still working on the basics and foundations of my diorama.  Ive come to a few more questions.  As I said, I wanted to put an german armored vehicle, but as has been pointed out, a BAR and some riflemen arent up to that kindof a job, so ajafleche recommending adding some rangers and some satchel charges.  However i found a tamiya set (ill post the link picture) of US mortar and machine gun troops, from which i would use the soldier with the bazooka, and the man behind him shoving the ammunition into the back.  I think that would be great for the diorama im doing.  I also might use the man crouched using the ?vickers 30 cal.? atleast thats what i thought it was, sorry i dont know my weapons.  I could not tell at all if these would be realistic to put in my normandy diorama, although with some different painting than the box and slight modifications, would they work do you think?  Also, i absolutely love the german Panzerkampfwagen II (early panzer) even though it was an extremely obsolete and flawed vehicle.  So do you think it would be historically realistic to use one of these as my german armored vehicle being ambushed in normandy? I googled that, but came up with no evidence whether they were used there or not. Please, if anyone knows if either of those two ideas would be likely or even possible, please tell me

 

And the promised link to the tamiya US gun and mortar figures:

And the panzerkampfwagen II, i know the figures are Africa Korps, I wouldnt use them, and i would paint diferently: 

Hi Ian

First , I must say that those hedgerows weren't my idea; just experimenting with a technique discussed in Osprey's Terrain Modelling by Richard Winslow. I recommend this book highly. Find it on Amazon.com and ask for it for Christmas.

I started on a wooden plaque from Hobby Lobby= $1.99. Glued a piece of styrofoam 1" x 1.5" x 8" ($.01? just a scrap piece) across, with Crafter's Pick water based Super Glue- $3.99. This glue is outstanding for dio building. An 8 oz bottle will take you a long way.  I took the advice that nothing should be completely "squared" or symetrical on the base, just doesn't look right, so the sttyro went on at an angle.

Covered entire base with Celluclay, 5-6 bucks for a pound. Added brown cheap acrylic paint to mixture. Cheaper versions of Celluclay available. It's really just paper mache. Cheaper technique is sand / dirt mixed to thin pancake batter with white glue, water and brown paint. Add tiny rocks, tiny broken twigs, etc to give texture. Whatever mix used, spread over base and styrofoam and styro piece. Made gully in mix for pathway, sprinkled tan sand over top.

While the mixture was still wet, I inserted the very ends of a "twig broom" bought at Michael's ($1.99) to look like hedge trunks- really crowded them in there. Allowed entire base to dry. Added rocks to sides of "wall" while still wet. Placed larger rocks in scene for a couple of boulders.

Next day, I glued fiberous material lengthwise across top of twigs to give hedges "body". I used rubberized horsehair. You could use Woodland Scenics' Polyfiber ($3.00), but I wanted to try this material disscussed in Winslow's book. I could only find it in the U.K. from a pace called Antenocities. Not expensive, however I had to pay for trans-Atlantic shipping. Wasn't too bad though. I bought as much as I could afford, almost twenty dollars. Should last me a few lifetimes.

Spray white glue/water mix over top and then started sprinkling tons of dried herbs. Parsley, oregano, dill weed, basil, whatever the Ruler of yout kitchen won't miss.  Laid down grass using static grass in clumos with tweezers to glue/water sprayed in base. I didn't bother painting grass, but you should. Paint greens for thick, healthy patches. Tans and browns at path edges and in patches for dead or dying grass.

This is just how I did this one piece. There are hundreds of different techniques. The hardest part is patience. Take a walk through a park, notice the colors, textures, growth patterns that you see. Snap pictures. Google "hedgerow" on internet images. Visit "how to..."'s  and "how I..."'s on individual modeller's websites. References and instructions galore!






I feel out of breath, that was a long monologue. I advise picking up that book. Great place to start. Experiment and keep doing it. Plan big, build bigger- if that's what you want. I think all advice about starting small is hindsight wisdom. You can only believe that once you have screwed up. It just means practice small.  Once you've accomplished results you like for different elements (figures, painting, structures, terrain, etc.), bring all those components together for the larger scenes. My first dio was a 1 foot x 4 foot Omaha; dozens of figures plus water, ostacles, a raft, blood, the works! Never fully finished. Stands today as a reminder of my dillusions of grandeur. However, my next project will be a gi-normous scene in Oosterbeek, outside of Arnhem, with half a dozen Brit paratroopers and twice that of Germans running them out of town. Wish me luck.

SteveM

Wow tons of awesome ideas, but i think im going to more or less stick with what I have with a few changes pointed out by you.  If i find the blowing up bridge idea is too ambitious or takes away from the other scene making you divert your attention, ill get rid of it and just  gkve somebody a bazooka or stolen panzershreck.  Also, your idea of adding Normandy scenery, is great, in every photo, movie or game theres the dead cows and horses with  carts, and the farm equipment and everything.  The only thing is, i dont really want to give the men more explosives, because that would mean another whole 4 man or so squad of demolitions experts, making a total of 10, which may be a little more than i planned, so maybe ill just have them ambushing a kubelwagen, or maybe even take your idea of having it broken down, being repaired, since i know tamiya makes a kubelwagen engine repair set.  Thanks for the ideas, your giving me just what i was looking for

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

it sounds like an ambitious project - maybe there are too many ideas going on. I have the same problem - all these great ideas for dios come into my head, and I want to them all in the same scene. Personally I think you'll be more successful (and less frustrated!) if you try to limit it to one of the ideas you are already considering.

some ideas prompted by your concept and the discussion so far:

US infantry lurking in the sunken road, waiting to ambush a Hanomag crew.... well if you don't want to give them heavy weapons, you can either a) have them hiding from it instead of attacking it or b) have the crew dismounted - having a break, refuelling, repairing damage etc - and at a disadvantage to be taken by a lightly armed squad.

Bridge to be blown up... in most cases, the Allies wanted to capture bridges intact - it's the Germans who want to blow them up.  You could have the bridge already wired, and the US forces trying to prevent the Germans setting off the charges. I think would make a great dio, but would entail a lot of planning and a very dynamic scene.  But it is an idea of how the bridge can be wired without worrying about engineers being around...

Overgrown tank... already discounted for the reason above, but you could consider other scenery evocative of France in the summer of 1944 - dead cows in fields, abandoned carts and dead horses, burned out military or civilian vehicles...

Just some ideas....

Ok, no overgrown sherman head, thanks for the advice, but it does look good there, so ill leave it, ill just make sure it doesnt look too old and wasted

IanIsBored2000 wrote:

and i am working on putting the "head" of a wrecked sherman stuck in the ground, all grown over, correct me if somehow that wouldnt be correct.

No grown over Sherman anything. The Normandy campaign only lasted from 6 Jume to late August 1944, certainly not enough time for a knocked out Sherman to get grown over. By September, the allies were threatening Holland and were in Belgium by December.

all good to hear, the kit came with one of those old one use Garand rifle grenades that goes over the top, but i had no plans for the infantry like this so i cut it of, and now of course i cant find it.  Four of them also have fragmentation grenades, atleast i beleive they are, so if i did do something like a kubelwagen, ( hope i spelled that alright) those were the light almost car like vehicles, right? or some other very light scout vehicle, that might be sufficient i was thinking. I have started the diorama, with the water ditch cut out, and put in some contour and slight trench type emplacements, and i am working on putting the "head" of a wrecked sherman stuck in the ground, all grown over, correct me if somehow that wouldnt be correct.  Also, lastly stevem i would love to know the secret on your hedgerows, or anyone elses ideas.  Thanks for the advice

By the way, could anybody find dpicture of what this demolition charge might look like so i could attempt a scratchbuild? im guessing its not just the red dynamite sticks taped together in a pack wired to a plunger...would it look more like a tan bag like a satchel, but wired to a plunger?  And do you think it would be at all posible that my infantry might get their hands on one even without the demolition crew, such as scrounging over a battlefield or salvaging one from somewhere? i guess im just on a low budget and any cuts would be helpful, but if you really think this is the only way to go for realism, than i guess it would be a good investment anyways.

you said there were no infantry in normandy,

Plenty of infantyr, no Marines. They were almost entirely deployed inthe Pacific. Those figures are more or less okay for Normady.

and i was thinking about also having demolitions charges or mines set on the bridge, but i was pretty sure no infantrymen carried such things, so i would need a demolitions crew..am i right?

Correct, but you could get by with a scratchbuilt detonator and some wiring to the bridge. There were demolitions crews assigned to the infantry. They were quite active on the beaches to breach barbed wire and other obstacles. In fact, the Dragon Ranger set  #6235 or 6306 (generation 2 with pe gun slings, extra heads and more ) has one guy with a bangalore torpedo and what appear to be satchel charges.

 

First of all stevem i would absolutely love to know how you made those.  The best idea for hedgerows ive found was on the warhammer wargame scenery page, which involved painting and/or flocking scouring pads, they do like nice, but yours are amazing. 

Also to ajlafleche, i apologize for calling them marines instead of infantry, i was in a bit of a rush.  The next problem, you said there were no infantry in normandy, i didnt research either, so i guess i will just base it somewhere else with the similar countryside farms and hedgerow lined roads, since i know we did fight in some of those places, ill look that up later.  And to your last question, once again completely right.  A BAR gunner, and a few riflemen with Garands, arent going to do a whole lot of hurt to any sort of armored vehicle.  I planned to have atleast one man with a bazooka or stolen panzershreck, and i was thinking about also having demolitions charges or mines set on the bridge, but i was pretty sure no infantrymen carried such things, so i would need a demolitions crew..am i right? and would that even be accurate, ill look that up as well.  if anyone has any other ideas for some things i could give the squad to help take out the german vehicle whatever it ends up being, or in the end, i may just make the vehicle something unarmored and open topped, then they would have a chance with just small arms.  Thanks a ton for your criticisism it was exactly what i was hoping to get.

Hi Ian

Those figures aren't that bad, pretty good if they are among your first. ajlafleche is correct in that you, as well as all of us, can always sharpen our painting skills. Just keep doing it. Learn as much as you can through free source like the internet. There's help out there all ovver the damn place. And no one will ever know everything about WWII, so might as well keep studying.

However it is never too soon to start building dioramas. Build as big and elaborate as you want. And if you screw up, no harm done. It was only your time and money spent. Continue to take pictures and post them here. There is always someone on these forums that knows more than you, that's what it's here for. Take advice graciously, learn and correct what you can, and then move on.

As far as cheap hedgerows and stone walls, here is an experiment piece
I did a little while ago:





Super-low cost. Let me know if you wanna know how I did it.

Stevem

First, those aren't Marines, they're army infantry. And there were no US Marines in Normandy. Second, they have nothing heavier than a .30 caliber weapon. Ambushing an armored vehicle unless the crew was completely out of the vehicle, would be suicidal with their weapons. They'd need at least a bazooka.

You might want to work on your basics before trying a very ambitious project like this. I see a lot of paint application issues in your figures. Take a little bit more time to get them well painted first.