Too disturbing to build?

A small vignette such as this can be more powerful than a bigger diorama with complex structures.  This would keep the focus on the humanity involved....I would TOTALLY go for it.

 

David

 I believe this is an art form, and as an artist you must make choices.  You're not locked into showing just brutality, yet it may still appear, show inmates in a soup line,(Probably a high point of their day.) yet the pathos revealed may prove to be a powerful statement indeed.  I have read "A day in the life of Ivan Denisovich."  (and I'm sure its misspelled.), by A. Solsenitchen such ecstasy exppressed over an extra chunk of bread, or easy work detail, by these poor sods, put a lump in my throat.  Ask yourself, "what if Picasso hadn't painted Guernica."

Oh yes it's been done before. I've seen several death camp dioramas. One depected people be lined up from off a train and seperated into groups It read " final farewell". Another was being liberated and showed us army not only helping the people that were left but covering over the dead. The title of this one was "at long last" those are the ones I remember but there were more.

  My favorite one is of a stalag luft camps on one side in the snow, with us airman let's just say in a bad situation.  on the other side the snow turned into clouds and you saw a b-24 getting shot up by 3 fw190's. It read "In the face of overwhelming odds we go on".  I have also seen dioramas of custards last stand (alot of killing going on in this one)

So I would say go for it. If it is a true life event and and done well it will get noticed. I don't see the problem with it.  As far as IPMS goes I think it has to do with the local club views so to speak. I've seen dio's like that at events, But I also know that have rules to cover this type of entry as well. I've never been placed in a position where I had to make that type of decision. I personally would allow it, but I don't know where IPMS stands on this.  I know they have some rules to leave themselves an out  just incase something does show up that needs special care. Remember there are kids at these events.

 

 It depends on what the dio is but I havent seen one yet that tugged at my heart. To be honest,a diorama is not the art form to try and portray the Holocaust or any other kind of war crime. War is bad enough but to try and make a dio of a war crime,etc I dont think can be done effectively. Its relatively easy to make something look "cool" in a dio,like a Sherman ripping through a hedgerow with a plow on it but it is very,very difficult to show suffering without actually making a sadistic scene. After all,how can you show what the Holocaust really was if you dont show it at its worst? Believe me,NOONE is going to look at a diorama and cry! Music-yes,movies-yes,dioramas-no! Use your energy for something else.

I remember seeing a thing a while back on the death camps, and it had to do with when Eisenhower came to inspect the camps shortly after the were liberated.  He then and there ordered that every soldier from Patton on down through the lowliest private come and see this camp.  His reasons were three-fold: 1.So everybody could see what the allies were fighting for.  2.To see the horrors, and report it to the world. 3.to bear witness that this really happened, so that if somebody came along later to deny it, there would be ample witnesses.  I don't remember the program, but I remember it was on  the history channel.

If that was good enough for the Supreme Commander of the European theatre, I think that it is a good thing to build this diorama, so to bear witness to the horrors, and to remind us about how to be and not to be in this world.  After all, "those that don't learn history are doomed to repeat it"

I was at the Imperial War Museum in London early last year and the Holocaust exhibition had a large diorama of auschwitz in 1/72 scale (I think). It included the netrance gates, the railhead in the camp with a train being unloaded and the human cargo being segregated into those destined for work and the others for the gas chambers. All the various bits of baggage and personall effects were depicted. The crematoria were also modelled.

It was very moving to look at though photos were prohibited in that section so I couldn't take any that I might show you.

Obviously it was on a scale that would be much too big for most, if not all of us, but it shows of such a depiction can be useful in presenting a very good visualisation of how things would have been.

I don't know if its a permanent exhibit or if I just got lucky in being there at the right time.

Cheers

I almost forgot one of the most important aspect of this discussion, one that usually tends to be forgotten: that dioramas as a concrete form of historical representation can be a useful pedagogical tool and maybe also a shortcut to a different historical situation that we can't and, in this case, wouldn't want to experience first hand.

When I was reading a lot about the "Operation Reinhardt" death Camps in Poland a couple of years ago, I learned that one aspect of them had been very problematic to reconstruct - the layout of the camps, how they actually looked back in 1942/43.

The problem was that, in contrast to Auschwitz for exampel, the camps of Operation Reinhardt (Belzec, Treblinka and Sobibor) was totally demolished in late 1943 as an effort to conceal the nazi crimes committed there. All the buildings were torn down, the ground was levelled and pine trees were planted on the sites. Since no drawing plans survived the war, the historians' reconstruction of the layout of the camps had to be based solely on eyewitness accounts. (Later, historians have been able to shed some more light on the topic through archelogical excavations and with the help of aerial photography.)

But based on eyewitness accounts there has been some attempts to make an accurate model of one of the camps, Treblinka. The problem in this respect is that the eyewitness accounts are left by the few surviving jewish prisoners and that thay had a limited possibility to see the whole camp. But by piecing all this information together one modeller by the name Peter Laponder managed to reconstruct Treblinka. The diorama, in the scale 1:400, is shown at the Gisozi Genocide Memorial in Kigali, Rwanda, another place that bears witness about human cruelty. The model can also be seen on this site:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/laponder1.html

One of the few survivors from Treblinka, Yankiel Wiernik, has also built his own model of the camp. Wiernik worked as a carpenter in the camp, could move more easily from one part it to another, and had therefor a better chance to get a more accurate overall picture. His model that is made out of wood can bee seen here:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/wiernik.html  

The third diorama that I know of is that made by a modeller named Peter (not sure about his first name). He based his model on the account of Richard Glazer, another  prisoner that survived Treblinka. Glazer had an unique opportunity to get an overview of the camp, since he worked in the so called "Camoflage commando", that every day left the camp to chop down branches to twine into the barbed wire fences, to conceal the horrors from people outside. (His book Trap with a Green Fence: Survival in Treblinka is one of the most chilling accounts from Treblinka and I can really recommed it for anyone interested in the Final solution. It is avaliable on Amazon.com for example).

Peters' model is different from the other two, since he tries to reconstruct the activety in the the camp. The scene in the foreground is that the victims leaving the trainset, but the diorama allows the spectator to follow the whole killing process up until the cremation of the bodies. Even though the model is in the scale 1:400, I find it to be one of the most horrifying representations I have seen of the Final solution, at least in this form. Some people may find it distrubing, a sign af bad taste etc, but to me it has the merit that it allows people to visulize the industrial killing machiney in all its brutal apparation. You be the judge. The model can be found on this site:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/peters.html

I hope that the links will show another way in which the diorama modelling can be used - for other purposes than the pure satisfaction we (often) find in building our models. 

/Tony

aka bultenibo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just want to give  worth on this. As someone else stated we all share a hobby that gives us the chance not only to do something we love but to depict certain eras, acts, personalities, and yes even the horrors of history. "Those who foreget history are doomed to repeat it", we should all remember that. Ive always wanted to see the scene from THE BIG RED ONE where the Lee Marvin is carrying the boy on his shoulders, that scedn always got to me. However as a note to competeing in events, I remember reading somewhere that Shep Payne once built a dio of a German 88 in a church and it was removed from the show because it was too offensive. If that was too offensive, what would they think of a dio of a Holocaust event?

David Voss wrote:

QUOTE: Originally posted by frostygirl but all things aren't for everybody.... maybe not too disturbing 4 u to build, but too disturbing for some to see ? Excellent statement. I have to agree with frostygirl. Personally, there are images I've seen which I would prefer never to see again, unless I'm mentally prepared for it. In regards to movies, I personally thought Saving Private Ryan was an excellent movie. I saw it in theatres once. I own a VHS copy which still remains sealed in plastic. I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it again. Another movie I feel the same way about is La Vita è bella (also called Life is Beautiful) which if you haven't seen it, I would highly recommend it. Be warned though, it is a sad movie. So maybe it's not as "PC" as many think.

about the saving private ryan... I too was very disturbed the first time I saw it, like the Bastogne episode in Band of Brothers. if you havent seen that episode in BoB, it's about the E company's medic and I warn you. be prepared for a LOT of blood if you watch it

I suppose I'm OK with them as long as they're tastefully done (like the one's Tony linked in his post). Those done purely for shock value are IMHO deserving of any negative critique they may receive.

This is one big discussion, but I agree with "FRC" (welcome to the forum by the way) in that the atrocities of war is often forgotten in dioramas.

I thought that I should give you two examples of dioramas depicting scenes from The final solution. I have searched the net thoroughly looking for dioramas of this kind, but these two are the only ones I have found yet.

 "My GOD, Why Do You Throw Me Away!" by Park Sung ho:

http://www.track-link.net/gallery/2619

"A Final Farewell" by Keith Forsyth:

http://www.armorama.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=468&page=5

 If anyone find another diorama on this theme, I would be grateful if you could post the link.

 

/Tony

aka bultenibo

 

This thread is four years old, but near and dear to my heart.  I made a 1/72 scale model of several buildings in Auschwitz, in which my dad was a prisoner (1941-1945), and the model, although graphic, is, I believe, important.  If I knew how to post pictures on this website, I'd show them.  Yes, the tiny figures are horrible and sad to look at, but how can you not look at them and feel compassion?  Modelers too often glorify war and ignore the atrocities.  I think the atrocities are what make dioramas so compelling and historically significant!

A Nazi death camp, slave quarters in the pre civil war south, the trenches outside of My Lai, or the twister remains of 2 proud towers. All are worthy subjects for a well done tastefull diorama. Repugnant as the subjects may be, these are stories that MUST be told. I can think of few better artistic forms to depict the triumph of the human sprirt in the depths of tragedy than a 3 dimentional depiction of what happened. What better tribute to those who lived the experience?

A number of people have suggested that the arguments against building such a dio are a matter of political correctness, but I don't see this as a political correctness (whatever that means anymore) issue at all. Rather, as someone pointed out, it is a subject that has already received a lot of attention in other media formats, and it seems to me that those who either survived Nazi death camps or were related to or knew somebody in one would welcome the opportunity to have their story told in this manner. It is not something someone would obviously do for a morbid love of the subject matter (I would certainly hope), but only for the most honorable reasons. In other words, the very act of building such a dio would indicate to me a desire to tell the story, to ensure that we "never forget," and to help others understand the brutality of warfare and its adjacent atrocities. What would someone accuse the builder of, exactly? Enjoying the recreation of others' pain, suffering, and death? Obviously, the builder would not have that in mind at all and would, in my mind, honor those who must have suffered so horribly.

DocTG

sod what the IPcMS think, that story should be told,the diorama should be built, and people should see it. i personaly don't have the skills to do this diorama, i would have to leave it to people with much more skill than i can ever hope to attain. but if i did have the skills needed i would do it with no hesitation. if people don't want to see it then they are blinded to what their fellow man can inflict to his or her brother/sister, this event in history could quite easily be repeated by some evil tyrant like the one that has been ousted from iraq (and from what i saw in the news probably was). to stop this from happening again we have to remember, to remember we have to see, to see there has to be evidence, even in model form. no ESPECIALLY in model form as this can be more graphic than a photograph. not in the bloodthirsty sense but in the purely visual sense. i say do it, please. Greg

This is a very thought provoking thread. It highlights freedom of speech and the evils of political correctness. To remember and relate the wrongs and horrors of the past should be a responsibility of the generation that lived through it and those that follow. If you have skills that let you tell that story and you do so, Bless you. I'm sure the victims of the Holocaust would want the world to remember what happened to them, wouldn't you? Now as far PC goes, it's a failed concept and was coined for the timid by those who would govern them. The only question is how long people will tolerate it. Build it if you feel moved to do so.

Never forget that war, always a terrible thing, brings out the worst in humanity but the best in men. Learn from the first and admire the second.

i got a chance to go there last summer, what part of the camp are you modeling? i probably have some pics of it.

You should do the diorama when and if you decide you are ready. If you feel that you need to make this statement then you shouldn't cheat yourself by not doing it.

QUOTE: Originally posted by frostygirl but all things aren't for everybody.... maybe not too disturbing 4 u to build, but too disturbing for some to see ?

Excellent statement. I have to agree with frostygirl.

Personally, there are images I've seen which I would prefer never to see again, unless I'm mentally prepared for it.

In regards to movies, I personally thought Saving Private Ryan was an excellent movie. I saw it in theatres once. I own a VHS copy which still remains sealed in plastic. I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it again. Another movie I feel the same way about is La Vita è bella (also called Life is Beautiful) which if you haven't seen it, I would highly recommend it. Be warned though, it is a sad movie.

So maybe it's not as "PC" as many think.

i seem to remember reading something about a Holocaust museum displaying a concentration camp diorama entirely made of lego blox and figures awhile back. i never actually saw this exhibit, but i remember being struck by the contrast between the benign and childlike nature of the material and the disturbing subject. i thought it was a great idea myself, and the more disturbing the subject the more worthy it is to remember (IMHO), and to make sure it never happens again !
but all things aren't for everybody.... maybe not too disturbing 4 u to build, but too disturbing for some to see ?
frosty

I think the IPMS ruling is the right way to do it.

People are offended by what they choose to be offended by. The Holocaust is one of those odd subjects that go along with pin-up art. It may be done tastefully, but we all know what it is and what it referes to.. giving it a stigma. The main question is what your intent is.
Do you intend to show-off your skill? do it with a popular subject that people are proud to see.
Do you intend to shock people? make something that they are embarrased to see.

Remember that time magazine cover, from the Oklahoma City bomb? It had a fireman carrying a dead child. It won a pulitzer, but the photographer was ashamed of having it getting so much attention.

Some things are better burried until it isn't a painful memory.

I think PCers are "realisticly challenged" because they have problems with reality. I was reminded of a Star Trek quote by that ostrich remark, Eric. It was something to the effect of a bird with a similar habit but with water and sometimes in their efforts to hide from something by refusing to acknowledge it they would drown. That's what the PC crowd are doing, drowning in their own shallowness. I wonder what these PCers do in real life. Probably nothing because they probably can't handle it. In their own way, they perpetuate the same attitude they are campaigning against. Isn't rejecting and persecuting a group of people because of their beliefs what the are protesting because that what they're doing to the people who aren't as radical as they are.

The entire world is trying to become PC on everything from the spoken language to dioramas now it seems. It's ok to show sexual scenes, drug use, domestic abuse, violence etc in the movies ( I don't have a problem with that ) but it's also prevelent on TV now at anytime during the day where kids are exposed to it more often without parental guidance ( I am opposed to that ). Go out in public and use the word "retarded" for someone who is mentally retarted and you are frowned upon for not saying "metally challenged" like that changes anything. Pretty soon we can't call people "short", they are "vertically challenged" and yeah, that's kind of a joke now, but it's coming just as hard. To many liberal minded people think if you call a pile of dog crap a "rose" it's gonna smell better. It's the ostrich syndrome of burying your head in the sand and pretending the "real" world isn't there. There are many ugly, evil, dangerous things and people out there and it's a reality that can't be changed by calling it something "nice" or "pretty".

As far as the dio goes, it could be done in a tasteful way (as far as the subject allows anyway) and would be a good lesson that I would let my children see if they were at least 7 or 8 maybe, because I want my children to understand that there is that kind of thing happening out there in the world today. Showing too much blood or gore would be a bit over the top even though it's reality, I'd want my kids to be older before seeing something like that.

I remember seeing a dio in one of Verlinden's books that showed a medic amputating a guys leg. It wasn't exactly pleasent but it did show the reality of war.

Eric

Basically what it comes down to is that I haven´t been commissioned to do something like this. I´d probably do it if I were though because it´s such an important piece of history.
But just to keep out on my bookshelf, well, I don´t know about that.
Also, it´s so important to not do a bad job so I´ll think about it, maybe put it on hold for some time and decide later.

Personally, I don't think that the topic about the Holocaust is too disturbing to depict in a diorama. Like the saying goes"...least we forget." this topic should remind us of what had happened & that it should never happen again. History teaches us a lot of things, it's our ignorance of those events that make history repeat itself.
About a month ago I was with my wife visiting historical sights in Washington, D.C., when we were @ the Arlington National Cemetery I had this strange kind of feeling. I see all these rows of crosses & was thinking to myself, these people weren't just buried here because they died in war but they're buried here because they died fighting for freedom... least we forget...Freedom is not Free.

This might sound a little weird but us as modelers have the power to communicate by our creations specific moments in time... I remember as a kid going to museums and looking, admiring and drooling over all the dioramas, it started a passion in me to learn history, not only military but history in general and to try to become a modeler myself to pass that gift along someday.... sometimes a picture or in this case a diorama or representation of a fact can trigger the humanity that some people have lost, I know that modelers do dioramas not only because they like it but because they want to share a message to future generations in a very good way...... If you choose to do the Dio keep us posted

A lot of old and classic paintings done during the Renaissance Period that speak about the "dark ages" can be considered offensive, politically malicious, disgusting or even morbid. Some of these depict in great details, people and events in suffering, pain and violence.

Do people despise or curse these paintings? No, people spend millions on them.

So I am asking myself...

What's then the difference between a painter in the Renaissance Period trying to paint a picture of a really horrifying event that occurred in his time and a modern day modeler trying to make a diorama of a similar theme but of a different period in history?

If the objective of both is to honestly recreate or record an event that they consider historically important and nothing more...then I see no difference at all. Like the paintings of old...these dioramas will become the window of the future generations when they try to look back into the past to learn.

As Styrene has said - Powerful statements can be made with the right diorama.

I was in Germany this last Spring, and visited many museums, churches, and historic places. The last big city I was in was Berlin, and they have many photographs in their memorials of the destruction of the city. It was a very awakening experience to see the photos and then just turn and look at the very place where it all happened (the Brandenburg Gate, at the moment).
However, what made the biggest impression on me was visiting a museum in Mannheim. In a large display case was a diorama of a city in total destruction. Just a two block long scene, with the rubble, the bodies, the survivors crawling over the rubble looking for survivors. Very disturbing, yet very truthful.
If you feel in your heart you should do this diorama, then you should do it. And don't concern yourself with whether it is appropiate.
As others have said here, if done well (not meaning in the super detail, modeling sense) it would honor the victims and survivors, and, I believe, would be a valuable contribution to history.
Please consider doing this. No one else has of yet.