USAF F-4 markings question.. With a side of USN

I am not too worried about the cans, thanks for the offer though. This thing is going to be sitting on a bookshelf with its rear against the wall. I have a Hagesawa kit I could pirate if I was really that upset about it, I just thought it was a little cheap on Revells part.

This paint scheme.

I have nearly perfect color vision and that looks like two shades to me. Unless the nose is considered a third shade. It just looks less faded to me. 

I ordered my markings for my 482TFW F-4D 66-7554. I found the Generic number and letter sheets on Squadron. A big thanks to whoever suggested that. I need to create an orange/black checkered stripe for the tail and the intake.. I don't suppose someone knows of anyplace I can buy one? Buying one aside, does anyone have any suggestions on the best way to make these stripes? My initial plan is going to be tamiya tape, paint, and a lot of time.

I have the kit a couple days from being primed and painted. It is a Revell kit and was way better than I planned. There was a little flash but the fit has been exceptional, even if the kit is a little weak on fiddly details... But an afterburner inside the tailpipes would have been nice (in case Revell is reading this)

I am planning on painting it in the late 1980s gray on gray scheme. I was planning on going with light ghost gray and Gunship gray... But I am open to suggestions if anyone knows better (I am sure someone does).

A lot of references indicate this is a three tone scheme.. I am not seeing it, but all the pictures I have dug up are less than stellar.

Also, I am hunting for Low-vis national insignias. I think I have some off of an F-15. Would those be about the right size? I am thinking a set from an F-16 would be too small. That just leaves me hunting for a black AFRES insignia.. Which I might have somewhere in my stash.. But if I don't is there a decal set with those insignia I could buy? I am not afraid to pay a few bucks to throw another partial decal sheet in the spare bag.

It seems like an insanely high percentage of all F-4 aftermarket decals are for USN/USMC.

ikar01 wrote:

That means that my F-4EJ should have them.

Yes, it should have one pylon.  I don't know why Hasagawa only included one in each Phantom kit.  Even their F-4B/N and F-4J/S kits only had one pylon.

berny13 wrote:

Rand, post a request on this site.  Hasagawa included that pylon in all of their 1/48 Phantom kits which wasn't used.  If anyone has the pylons in their spare parts they should be able to help.  Right now I have most of my kits and spare parts boxed away and in storage.  I had to do that because the roof is leaking in my model room.  An improper repair from Huricane Ivan damage five years ago.  We will be tearing down our old house (35 years old) and building a new one.

 Thanks Berny! I'll take your suggestion and hope someone here has them.

RedCorvette wrote:

berny13 wrote: That is it, a painting, not an actual photograph.  The author of the painting made several mistakes.  He painted a F-4D, not a F-4C.  He could paint very well but wasn't accurate in many of his paintings. I did go back and do some research on the type of aircraft shot down that day.  You are correct that they did engage MIG-21's on that mission.  I made a mistake and got my mouth (or typing fingers) ahead of my brain.  I am sorry for any confusion I caused. However, I can't believe that the ECM pod would be carried on an outboard pylon when the inboard pylons were wired for them.  I have never seen an ECM pod loaded on the outboard station in all of my years working on the Phantom.  Let me go back and check my tech data on configuration.  Yes Col Olds was quite a man.  I had the pleasure of meeting him when I was in SEA. My understanding is that USAF Phantoms did carry ALQ-71 pods asymmetrically on the outboard wing pylons early in the war.  In early 1967 Col. Jones Bolt pushed to get the inboard pylons re-wired to allow the pods to be carried there.  Getting approval to modify the pylons was a big deal because they were originally wired for nukes.  In similiar fashion, Col Olds led an effort to modify the Sidewinder rails on the inboard pylons with spacers to allow TER's to be carried along with the AIM 9's.  Mark

The inboard pylons were wired to carry more than Special Weapons.  The F-4C was wired to carry the AIM-4 Falcon from the begining, as well as any ordinance in the USAF inventory.  TCTO 1F-4C-521 had the wiring to the pylon so it would be AIM-9 capable pre installed.  The relay for the Sidewinder was installed into the ACRP.  The wiring for the AIM 9 was jumpered off of the Falcon missile wiring. 

TCTO 1F-4C-523  added the control box, relay, and wiring for the ECM pod.  The wiring went along the inboard leading edge, behind the LEF and BLC duct.  From there it was sent to the pylon main electrical harness located just forward of the pylon.  Additional wiring was added from the main harness to the pylon with the cannon plug connector located in the aft part of the pylon.  A relay was installed into the ACRP.  All aircraft that came off of the line starting with the F-4D had the relay relocated to the #3 MRP.

Col Olds did order his machine shop to manufacture Donuts so the Sidewinder wings would not hit the TER sway brace lugs on launch.  That was done with approval from a MDD Tech Rep.  MDD was informed after the fact and a TCTO came out for the pylon to be equipped with the Donut. 

berny13 wrote:

Air Master Modeler wrote:  berny13 wrote: Rand, AJ-201 on its MIG killing mission was loaded with four AIM-7E's, four AIM-9G's, a center line tank and two outboard pylons.  Remember that the Navy/Marine outboard pylons were different than USAF style outboard pylons.  Hasagawa has the correct type pylons in their F-4B/N kit and their F-4J kit in 1/48 scale.  Thanks Berny! As I recall the last time I built the Monogram 1/48 F-4J it did have the right style navy inboard pylons but no outboard pylons unless I cut them from the wing drop tanks. I'll check again to be sure. Also I got the right tires this time. My True Details F-4J/S tires arrived this morning. Just waiting on the Shamrocks decals and the Airwaves cockpit PE set and I am ready to start a lean, mean Marines Phantom.     That vont verk.  The Navy/Marine pylons are not like the wing tank pylons.  Take a look at this photo and you can see the difference.

ARGGGG! Ok Berny, any sugestions on how to get the right outboard pylons without buying another kit that comes with them?

I am on a very very tight budget and all finances are tied up for getting into apartment here. I have no cash to spare for awhile.   

paintsniffer wrote:

finally, I feel confident enough in my skills that I am ready to tackle several F-4s i have been wanting to build for a long time- only to discover I am apparently the only person who wants to tackle said projects. I work in 1/48th scale and I have started aquiring the kits for these models. Does anyone make Decals for the F-4 flown by Robin Olds around the time of operation Bolo? What about the F-4 flown by Steve Ritchie with all the Mig stars on the intake? I did some poking around on greatmodels and a couple other places and managed to come up dry, I even searched by tail number with no luck. Also, A question about operation Bolo.. where did the F-4s involved hang the ECM pod that was pirated from the F-105s (The stock number escapes me) I have seen pictures of the ECM pod hanging from one of the forward Sparrow stations but I can't imagine giving up a Sparrow on a mission designed to ambush Migs. For the side of USN.. Anyone make markings for the F-4 flown by Cunningham/Driscoll on their famous flight? I know Monogram used to make a full kit with those markings.. But given Cunninghams recent legal problems they seem to have all but dropped off the radar. Also, does anyone make a sheet of USAF tail numbers and letters? I want to build a late F-4D from the 906th FG at Wright Patterson AFB in the mid 80s. They had one airplane with two Mig victories and I have the tail number somewhere (but I am not at home so my references aren't nearby). I know I am out of luck on such obscure markings (like the 906th FG) but I was thinking someone might have a sheet of numbers and letters to help out people looking to build the really obscure models. Once again, a search turned up nothing- but I might not be using the right search terms. I considered painting the stuff myself- but I am not that good, or that patient. If such a sheet exists for the USAF.. Does one also exist for the USN? I am building an RA-5C with RVAH-12 from the USS Independence and I need an AC tail code that I don't feel like painting myself.

I located some generic tail number sets in both white and black on Squadron a while back when I too was looking for obscure Phantom decals

Air Master Modeler wrote:

berny13 wrote: Rand, AJ-201 on its MIG killing mission was loaded with four AIM-7E's, four AIM-9G's, a center line tank and two outboard pylons.  Remember that the Navy/Marine outboard pylons were different than USAF style outboard pylons.  Hasagawa has the correct type pylons in their F-4B/N kit and their F-4J kit in 1/48 scale.  Thanks Berny! As I recall the last time I built the Monogram 1/48 F-4J it did have the right style navy inboard pylons but no outboard pylons unless I cut them from the wing drop tanks. I'll check again to be sure. Also I got the right tires this time. My True Details F-4J/S tires arrived this morning. Just waiting on the Shamrocks decals and the Airwaves cockpit PE set and I am ready to start a lean, mean Marines Phantom.

That vont verk.  The Navy/Marine pylons are not like the wing tank pylons.  Take a look at this photo and you can see the difference.

berny13 wrote:

Rand, AJ-201 on its MIG killing mission was loaded with four AIM-7E's, four AIM-9G's, a center line tank and two outboard pylons.  Remember that the Navy/Marine outboard pylons were different than USAF style outboard pylons.  Hasagawa has the correct type pylons in their F-4B/N kit and their F-4J kit in 1/48 scale.

Thanks Berny!

As I recall the last time I built the Monogram 1/48 F-4J it did have the right style navy inboard pylons but no outboard pylons unless I cut them from the wing drop tanks. I'll check again to be sure. Also I got the right tires this time. My True Details F-4J/S tires arrived this morning. Just waiting on the Shamrocks decals and the Airwaves cockpit PE set and I am ready to start a lean, mean Marines Phantom.  

paintsniffer wrote:

Air Master Modeler wrote: Accurate Minitures is producing an F-4 kit in 1/48 scale that they say will have markings for Robin Olds F-4 durring Operation Bolo. The Monogram 1/48 Pro Modeler F-4E kit does have the markings for Ritchie's F-4. As for Cunningham and Driscol, you have two options,,, you can get the Tamiya 1/32 F-4J which has the decals for "Showtime 100" OR you can opt to go to ebay and get the Monogram or Revell 1/48 F-4J Mig Killer Kit also comes with decals for the same but you will need an after market decal set for the walkways. I don't doubt his expertise.. He certainly sounds like he knows what he is talking about, and I will take a reference like that which I can ask questions of over a reference book written by god knows who any day.   I don't think Monograms F-4J has been made in a long time. I can't imagine the decals being in great shape if I did pick one up. I will hunt up a Pro Modeler F-4E.. I like the Tamiya kits but I was trying to keep it all in 1/48.

Monograms 1/48 F-4J is still around. OOP but you can still get one on ebay. I just got one for my next project which will be VMFA-333 Shamrocks Mean Marine Mig Killer.

Here is my Showtime 100 which I did from the Monogram kit with Berny's tech advice.

/forums/830703/ShowPost.aspx

She came out great.

paintsniffer wrote:

Air Master Modeler wrote: Accurate Minitures is producing an F-4 kit in 1/48 scale that they say will have markings for Robin Olds F-4 durring Operation Bolo. The Monogram 1/48 Pro Modeler F-4E kit does have the markings for Ritchie's F-4. As for Cunningham and Driscol, you have two options,,, you can get the Tamiya 1/32 F-4J which has the decals for "Showtime 100" OR you can opt to go to ebay and get the Monogram or Revell 1/48 F-4J Mig Killer Kit also comes with decals for the same but you will need an after market decal set for the walkways. I don't doubt his expertise.. He certainly sounds like he knows what he is talking about, and I will take a reference like that which I can ask questions of over a reference book written by god knows who any day.   I don't think Monograms F-4J has been made in a long time. I can't imagine the decals being in great shape if I did pick one up. I will hunt up a Pro Modeler F-4E.. I like the Tamiya kits but I was trying to keep it all in 1/48.

Yellowhammer did a 1:48 sheet for Showtime 100.  If you can track one of those sheets down it definitely would be a step up from the Monogram kit decals.  Meteor Productions were the distributor for Yellowhammer - not sure what happened since Meteor pulled the plug on their operation.  Might want to check out Ebay.

Mark

Air Master Modeler wrote:

Accurate Minitures is producing an F-4 kit in 1/48 scale that they say will have markings for Robin Olds F-4 durring Operation Bolo. The Monogram 1/48 Pro Modeler F-4E kit does have the markings for Ritchie's F-4. As for Cunningham and Driscol, you have two options,,, you can get the Tamiya 1/32 F-4J which has the decals for "Showtime 100" OR you can opt to go to ebay and get the Monogram or Revell 1/48 F-4J Mig Killer Kit also comes with decals for the same but you will need an after market decal set for the walkways.

I don't doubt his expertise.. He certainly sounds like he knows what he is talking about, and I will take a reference like that which I can ask questions of over a reference book written by god knows who any day.

I don't think Monograms F-4J has been made in a long time. I can't imagine the decals being in great shape if I did pick one up. I will hunt up a Pro Modeler F-4E.. I like the Tamiya kits but I was trying to keep it all in 1/48.

berny13 wrote:

That is it, a painting, not an actual photograph.  The author of the painting made several mistakes.  He painted a F-4D, not a F-4C.  He could paint very well but wasn't accurate in many of his paintings. I did go back and do some research on the type of aircraft shot down that day.  You are correct that they did engage MIG-21's on that mission.  I made a mistake and got my mouth (or typing fingers) ahead of my brain.  I am sorry for any confusion I caused. However, I can't believe that the ECM pod would be carried on an outboard pylon when the inboard pylons were wired for them.  I have never seen an ECM pod loaded on the outboard station in all of my years working on the Phantom.  Let me go back and check my tech data on configuration.  Yes Col Olds was quite a man.  I had the pleasure of meeting him when I was in SEA.

My understanding is that USAF Phantoms did carry ALQ-71 pods asymmetrically on the outboard wing pylons early in the war.  In early 1967 Col. Jones Bolt pushed to get the inboard pylons re-wired to allow the pods to be carried there.  Getting approval to modify the pylons was a big deal because they were originally wired for nukes. 

In similiar fashion, Col Olds led an effort to modify the Sidewinder rails on the inboard pylons with spacers to allow TER's to be carried along with the AIM 9's. 

Mark 

ikar01 wrote:

When Olds flew with a certain other pilot, who's name I can't remember at the moment, they would call them "Blackman and Robin"

Col Robin Olds was the wing commander and his vice commander was Col Chappie James.  They were known as Blackman and Robin, a term coined by Col James. 

This is Ritchie's ship in 1974 when it stopped at Korat for a few hours.

It went on to be assigned to the 18th TFW for a time and I believe it's now on dispay at the Air Force Academy.

The decals for this ship were put out on many kits and should be availableon a sheet or in someone's spare decals box.  If you want, I'll see if I still have a set or two.  I never do Ritchie's ship any way.

When Olds flew with a certain other pilot, who's name I can't remember at the moment, they would call them "Blackman and Robin"

Don't forget though that Col. Olds used a non-standard configuration on the Op. Bolo mission F4s and had to get special permision and special help to do so. That configuration would have not been as authorized in the tech manuals.

 But I do very much appreciate a Phantom Phixers insight. 

Just a note...

For those of you who are new to the forums here Berny is the Almighty Ali Babba of Phabulous Phantoms. He served in the Air Force and was over there in Southeast Asia durring Vietnam working on F-4 Phantoms as well as many other Air Force and a few Navy aircraft he has worked on. He knows the Phantom inside and out which is why we call him the Phantom Guru here. Trust him when he gives tech advice and tells what a Phantom had and didnt have. He is the best person here to ask for help when building any varient of the venerable Phantom. When I build my Phantom kits he is the first person I seek out for tech help and advice and he has never been wrong.

I praise Berny and bow before his Almighty Phantom Guruness!

Edit: BTW Berny would you know the corrrct weapons loadout of VMFA-333 F-4J #155526 AJ201 Marines Mig Killer? This is my next project for my Mig Killers II GB. Thanks!

 Berny, I trust that you are correct more than the painting. And I have never seen an ECM pod on the outboard pylons in any pictures I've seen either.

 It was mentioned in a few places that for Olds' Fighter Sweep mission, the F4s did have 4 Sparrows and 4 Sidewinders, so I guess the F105 pod would have to have been mounted on one of the inboard pylons under the sidewinders.

TCTO 1F-4C-521, replace all Navy style pylons with USAF style pylons (1964).

TCTO 1F-4C-523, Install ECM pod control panel in rear cockpit.  Install ECM pod wiring to the inboard pylons and forward missile wells. (1964)

Information from F-4 Phantom TCTO (Time Compliance Tech Order) listing found in the 1F-4C-4-1.

Accurate Minitures is producing an F-4 kit in 1/48 scale that they say will have markings for Robin Olds F-4 durring Operation Bolo. The Monogram 1/48 Pro Modeler F-4E kit does have the markings for Ritchie's F-4. As for Cunningham and Driscol, you have two options,,, you can get the Tamiya 1/32 F-4J which has the decals for "Showtime 100" OR you can opt to go to ebay and get the Monogram or Revell 1/48 F-4J Mig Killer Kit also comes with decals for the same but you will need an after market decal set for the walkways.

That is it, a painting, not an actual photograph.  The author of the painting made several mistakes.  He painted a F-4D, not a F-4C.  He could paint very well but wasn't accurate in many of his paintings.

I did go back and do some research on the type of aircraft shot down that day.  You are correct that they did engage MIG-21's on that mission.  I made a mistake and got my mouth (or typing fingers) ahead of my brain.  I am sorry for any confusion I caused.

However, I can't believe that the ECM pod would be carried on an outboard pylon when the inboard pylons were wired for them.  I have never seen an ECM pod loaded on the outboard station in all of my years working on the Phantom.  Let me go back and check my tech data on configuration. 

Yes Col Olds was quite a man.  I had the pleasure of meeting him when I was in SEA.

Take a look at the painting on this page. It shows the ECM pod on the starboard outboard pylon.

 Not disagreeing with Berny13, just pointing out that there seems to some widespread confusion about this.

http://user.icx.net/~arlisk/bolo.html

 This page also shows that they did get Mig21 kills:

 http://www.acepilots.com/vietnam/olds_bolo.html

 This PDF is a great read about Olds' career and operation Bolo. He was a very interesting officer.  

paintsniffer wrote:

berny13 wrote: The QRC-160 is a AN/ALQ-71 ECM pod.  So the inboard pylon under the Sidewinders would have been the most probable place if I am digesting all this correctly. I am guessing the side doesnt really matter. Was there a preference or was it mostly arbitrary?

It doesn't matter which side you hang it on.