Fire bombers???

Never say never!!!
We were just talking about a "what-if" scenario and it looks like it could happen.
Hmmmmmm, let's see. An S-3 firebomber with an A-37 spotter plane????
I'm visualizing the diorama as I type!!!
Talk to y'all later! I got diagrams to draw!!!!

Randie

Hey, chopperfan:

Looks like I got your attention with the S-3 comment :-)

I think that would be a great lease on life for the Viking after its military days are done with.

I can't visualize a 747 doing water drops. I would think the turbulence at such low levels and the pressure of keeping it low enough to be practical at firekilling against the updraft from the fire would mike for a very short lifespan on such a big airframe.

I'd like to get my hands on one of the TOKO 1/72 Antonov 72 "Coaler" kits and see if I can get enough information on the fire killer variant of it to do a correct conversion on it.

If I'd been thinking of fire bombers when I saw Revell Germany's reissue of Frog's 1/72 Avro Shackleton MR.3 a few years back, I'd have scooped the kit up and tried to make a fire killer out of it. Was the Shack ever used for fire killing? If not, its unfortunate, it probably would have done the job well.

I'd like to see them rig up a C-2 Greyhound for fire bombing.

A BAe Jetstream would also be intresting to see in that role, I see them all the time with those bolt on luggage containers under them and think what a short hop it would be from that to a retardant tank.

heres a couple of reference books that you may want to check out,

skytruck and skytruck2 by the late Stephen Piercey and douglas dc3 the survivors by Kengo Yamamoto, the latter hasnt got any firebombers in but it is an exellent reference book for the DC3 and has the Bastler turbo daks in too.

the skytruck books have loads of old warbird and big prop stuff doing everything, from a B17 used to freight raw meat to crop spraying constalations, a firebombing privateer to a DC4 used as a bar (mmmm beer). hope you find this useful. Greg

UPNORTH!!!!!
Just thought you might be interested in a quote from the Jan/Feb 2004 issue of WARBIRDS INTERNATIONAL. The article is "Bombers at War". It is about firebombers.
Here is the quote. "The USFS is considering operating the Lockheed S-3 Viking.
About 100 S-3 airframes will become available as the type is retired over the next few years. Also, a Douglas DC-10-10 has been tanked and has conducted some initial test drops. This aircraft is capable of carrying 12,000- to 14,000-gal. loads. ALso, a Boeing 747 is currently being tanked but it will be interesting to see how these machines perform in the violent, low-level and relatively slow environment of today's fire bombers."
Should be interesting to see how they work!!!
On to the S-3 project!!!!

Randie

Hey, if it works out post pictures, I'd love to see it.

Merry Christmas!

UPNORTH!
You ain't gonna believe this @#*%!!! I was looking through my filing cabinet today and ran across the instruction sheet for the 1/48 S-3A'
I was thinking, "this would look cool in the firebomber scheme. Flaps down, rolling in slow like they were tracking a sub and ZAP!! Dump there retardant on the fire."
I may just try that. I've got a couple of those kits. Why not??
Anyway, good modelling to all and Merry Christmas!!!!

Randie

I read an article in an aviation magazine recently that said the US Navy would be looking for a replacement for the S-3 Viking in the next ten years or so.

Can you visualize an S-3 rigged up for fire killing? I hope they consider the Viking for the job when the time comes.

Kik36.
I watched those P2s and P3s flying from Minden this last summer while I was getting my '74 Ford 4wd van ready to make the pilgrimage back to Oklahoma. As a matter of fact, I watched them fighting a big brushfire where Hwy. 50 intersects with 395 just south of Carson City. Awesome display. They were also using crop dusters on that fire. That was something I had never seen or heard of. Take care.

Randie

Thanks, Stinger. And thanks Stan. I've got quite a few pics of the -415 and now that I know the problem areas I'll be sure and use them to their full advantage.
Again, thanks to ALL who have responded to this post. I thought I was the only one with the fire bomber bug!!

Randie

Hi gang

Just to let you know that the Heller CL-415 has a number of "challenges" in store for you. Much of the kit is the older CL-215 parts. A quick summery of the major issues are:
- nacelles too widely spaced and nacelles lack "down" thrust angle
- flight compartment side consoles, bulkhead, and instrument panel glareshied are for a CL-215
- nose gear lacks steering actuator
-aerodynamic bullet at H-stab and V-stab intersection is wrong shape

Check your referances before you start! This one's going to take a bit of work.

Randie - You got it bud! I have to wait until I get back home though, on the 23rd. I'll try to put it all together for you. There were three articles in all about firefighting in the northwest over this last summer. I'll photo copy them ans snail them to you, along with scanned pics from the AvWeek mag, which I may send by email as an attachment. Which picture format would you prefer?
Will email you more about this next week.

stinger

In 1988 - 1991 I worked as a ATC dispatcher on the firelines in Montana. I was the one who communicated between the spotter plane, fire boss, and fire desk. I was in Kalispell when Speilberg came for a vacation and do some research on Mountain Men. He got so caught up with the WWII feeling aroung the fireport, that the movie Always resulted from it. We had three planes for the West Glacier and Augusta fire that year. The C210 was the spotter, then we had the Privateer and two A26's. A P2 also came in one day with an engine that blew a rod. I thought I would never see the day where I'd wake up to a 1/2 dozen R2800s being ran up for MAG checks.
We also had a ANG Chinook and 6 Hueys that were always in the air providing supply runs to the fire lines. I got to be hauled around in the Huey to set up repeaters on the mountain tops so that we could talk to the firelines that were in the snow chutes.

I'm hoping to get some time to scan in all the pictures I accumlated during those years to share.

For a good book about the pioneers of firebombing, get a copy called "Bring the Biggest Piece Back". It is about the Johnson Flying Service that was based out of Missoula MT. and has all the planes, from Tri-motors, TBMs and A-26s to C46s and C54s. It goes into detail about the first man use airplanes in firefighting to drop smokjumpers and to use as water bombers.

Scott

Hey Stinger!!

In responce to your email. Yes I would be interested in seeing the article.
If you will email me at coulterrc2002@yahoo.com, I will give you my snailmail.
Apparently, my sbcglobal address isn't working right. Need to get in touch with those folks.

Thanks,
Randie

I just recently read an article in Aviation Week about fire bombers. Actually they did a three part series on them, but the Nov. 17, 2003 issue has an article showing a new concept aircraft and a great looking AH-1 Cobra fire recce platform that is based in Sacramento. The article also tells of various new firebomber concepts that include:

Putting a five blade rotor on top of a C-130, thus making it a "Rotodyne".
Creating a C-17 based firebomber.
An A-10 FireHog.
And, get this.... A Boeing 747-400, that could drop 24,000 gallons of water at a height of 400 - 800 feet!!!
Now that's something that I would pay to see in action!

I think the C-130, C-17, and especially the 747 concepts would make great looking models in that fire red and white scheme that is the trend now.

Check out the mag issue from your library. Aviation Week and Space Technology, Nov. 17, 2003

Merry Christmas to all,

Stinger

The turboprop B17 was converted by an outfit working out of Montana. Saw it once in Kallispel Mt on tanker base. They took 4 RR Darts off of a British airliner and stuck them on. Understand they had all kinds of control proplems (props turn the wrong direction).

It was lost not long after that on a fire in the same general area. The way it was explained to me (two of our aircraft were operating the same fire and witnessed it). The B-17 was flying a ridge line, at about 100 ft agl, in extremly gusty winds. Apparently a gust of wind got under the left wing, causing the the aircraft to roll to the right. The pilots couldn't control it and the aircraft did a barrel roll and slammed into the ridge about a 1/2 mile from where the roll started.

I have some pretty nice walkaround digital photos of a canadair amphib fire tanker, that landed at our airport and some walkaround pics of a OV Bronco. I have worked on the Broncos at the airport, as well as a Bell, and a DC-6. I also worked on a P-2 in Nevada, converting it into a firebomber for Minden Air in Carson City..their website is: www.mindenair.com they have some great pics of their P-2's. Unfortunately they lost one about 2 months while fighting a fire. If anyone is interested in pics of the Canadair, Bronco or DC-6 let me know, and I will gladly e-mail them. Unfortunately, the extensive pics I took of the P-2 were before I bought a digital camera, and at this point I do not have a scanner. kik36@cox.net

The jet pod is from a P2V Neptune. This C-119G belongs to Hawkins & Powers Aviation based in Greybull, Wyoming. My grandfather works for them, I grew up around all those awesome aircraft! If I remember, the AC-119 that Testor/Italeri produced has the same nose.

Yeah! Just like that one!

Take Italeri's C-119 and Leading Edge's Canadian decals and resin nose set for it and find some good shots of the jet pod and we might have something here

Like this one...

Good Luck on that project, it wouldn't surprize me a bit if there was a set of resin turboprobs out there in the aftermarket world to make the conversion happen.

When I saw the pictures of the Electra on the Airspray site, it almost made me want to go out and buy Academy's recent 1/144 kit and try that conversion out.

I saw a C-119 refitted for fire killing duties a number of years ago, it had a jet engine stuck on top of it for added thrust. Where's Italeri's old Flying Boxcar kit when you need it!?

I just returned from taking the betterhalf to work and was perusing the web and found this site.

www.baslerturbo.com

Now I have never modified a kit or scratchbuilt anything other than a few added details to an existing kit. But, after looking this over, I just might break out the old Monogram C-47 and attempt this. I may screw it up royal. But, I gotta try!!!
If and when I get finished I will try and post the pic's. I may even do a complete build type article. (gettin' out the Pentax!)

Randie

you guys live such sheltered lives LOL. forget the airshow, go to the real thing. there was a forest fire by Prince Albert (about 40 mins) so we went to the one side of the river and watched all the water-bombers do their stuff on the other side.

UPNORTH

I believe the conversion was from Lonestar Models in Texas. I would like to get my hands on a couple.

Randie

I have used Leading Edge decals and have no complaints about them, the Invader sheets were well printed and accurate, though I never used those sets myself.

I seem to recall someone making a fire killer conversion set for F7F Tigers, it included the belly tank and some decals for American registered ones. I keep thinking Cutting Edge had done them but I can't remember for sure. Can anyone jog my memory?

Upnorth, this is indeed good news... I might have to take my Canadairs out of the loft, after all..!

Here are more sites for you all to check out concerning firebombers from A-26, C-119, C-97, C-130, CH-54, P2V, and my favorite the PB4Y-2G!

http://www.hawkinsandpowers.com/
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?airlinesearch=Hawkins%20and%20Powers&distinct_entry=true
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?airlinesearch=Hawkins%20%26%20Powers&distinct_entry=true
http://www.firehogs.com/photos/tankers.shtml
http://p2vneptune.org/f03.shtml
http://www.ruudleeuw.com/greybull.htm
http://www.wildlandfire.com/photos.htm
http://www.oldprops.f9.co.uk/Privateer.htm

...and for you chopper geeks:

http://www.erickson-aircrane.com/
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?airlinesearch=Erickson%20Air-Crane&distinct_entry=true
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?airlinesearch=Erickson%20Air-Crane%20Inc&distinct_entry=true

Enjoy!

I have a CD containing several pictures taken by a friend of mine of fire figting hehicopters taking on water at Wentworth Falls. If soneone could tell me how I will post them on this site. If not I can burn a copy and send it to FSM.
Dai

I think fire bombers are great, as a Canadian, the CL-215 and 415 have a special place in my heart as aircraft go. I saw a 215 operated by the Alberta Government up close several years ago. Quite the machine.

I also saw the converted A-26 Invaders of Airspray. There's some photos of the Airspray Invaders, Electras and CL215s at their web site: www.airspray.com

Leading Edge did, at one time, make 1/72 and 1/48 decal sheets for Airspray's Invaders. Perhaps they still do. They have announced some new CL-215 and 415 sheets for early 2004.

Here's a couple of shots I took a few years back of an ex RCAF Mitchell converted to fire killing duties.

As soon as I find more sites I'll post them. I am always looking for new pics. If I ever get my scanner up and running I have a couple of Air Classic articles on fire bombers. One is about the F7F from Sept. 1976. The other from Feb. 1994 covers various models, but mainly it is about the C-97 in Alaska but it does have a couple of nice color shots of an OV-10A Bronco forward controller ship. Also, Squadron's #1106 P-61 Blackwidow in Action book has a b/w/ pic of an F-15A Reporter fire bomber. Good looking a/c!!!