prices

Manufacturers supply more detail asked for by the consumer. OK; now my questions is: Why pay for the detailing that only YOU know is there. I'm just getting back into the hobby and have changed from 1/32 to 1/48 because all that detailing goes away when you closed the two halves! Detailing if great it that's your thing, but have you ever watched your firends eyes glaze over when you tell them about how you resricibed the interior floor panels to match your photo refereence? Personally, I want a kit that is a good representation of the real thing without having to search arournd for little wires for the engines that no one ever see until you point them out.

Hmmm, I honestly would like for people to proof to me that those price increases came from the Japanese manufacturers.

To be honest at the most I see a slight price increase over here($1.0~1.5), but nothing even remotely close to what you guys are talking about.
Hence my comment to check the Japanese prices and the double check with sites like HLJ.

Of course if a 20yr old Kit is upgraded I DON'T expect it to sell for same price as the kit did 5/10/15/20yrs ago. It is uncommon for prices to be marked up simply because there are newer and more expensive kits/versions out, bought many rare and OOP kits at the original price over here. And I have also seen re-issued kits sell for the original price many times.

Many japanese companies produce kits for 20yrs and still retain the original price on the item and thus the new release items will seem a lot more expensive. Hence I can get hornet Kits ranging from $9 to $24.

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Neither can I see a Company releasing a kit for 6month and pulling it in favour of the same kit with new decals, unless the original kit was a limited issue.
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But I guess I am wasting my time here as opinions seem to be firmyl settled.

A. I expect to pay for a brand new kit because of the money spent invested by the manufacturer (up to date molds ain't free). But when the kit is 30+ years old, with the same box and decals why do we get an increase in price from 69 cents to 15.95? Yes, I realize the cost of raw plastic is tied to the cost of petroleom, but in theory everything else has already paid for.

B. As far as a piece of sprue which changes the model from an A to a C version, I would be willing to bet even money that the molds for all the different versions were made at the same time as the origional kit. Remember when you used to get all the parts to build one of 3 or 4 versions in one kit?

C. I too get unhappy when a model is released, out for 6 months, removed from the market and then re-released with new decals and box, with a corresponding price increase of from 5 dollars to 8 dollars. (P-51B re-released as P-51C - forget it they're both the same airplane, just built at different plants).

D. How come a kits retail price can be 38.50 in both FSM and my LHS but I can get it on line for 10 to 15 bucks cheaper? (and, in my opinion, that is still way too much to spend on a twin engine 1/72 model)

Thanks for letting me vent. Even though I have a bunch of kits, I still buy them, just not as many as I used to and very few current releases.

QUOTE: Originally posted by wayne baker What it amounts to, in the end, is whatever the market (us) will pay.

Yes and no. Wholesalers and Importers often also play a large role, the situation is getting better though.

Example:
I once asked the local wholesaler(only one in the country) why he dosn't import Kit A but instead imports Kit B.
Kit B was a shelf-hogger and our customers were screaming for Kit A, he told me to my face that Kit A WILL NOT sell but that Kit B will do(because he prefers Kit B himself). Being the only wholsesaler also meant that we could not bypass him and had to buy Kits from him at prices that he set, we could have ordered & shipped the Kits cheaper from england as a small order.

What it amounts to, in the end, is whatever the market (us) will pay.

Badger 175 the complete set, sells for 280 euros in greece that is 340 dollars, at dixie the price is 68 dollars, 52 euros,,,,,even mail cost can not excuse that......
Can anyone beat this rip-off?......
However most of the kits have the same price with rest of Europe or even USA (some of them..)

For the people that are interest here is the info from HLJ on both of those Items:

F/A-18C Hornet:
http://www.hlj.com/scripts/hljpage.cgi?HSGD8 (82 parts)

F/A-18F Super Hornet:
http://www.hlj.com/scripts/hljpage.cgi?HSGE18 (120 parts)

Looks like the 18C is an OLD Kit and possible dead-stock.

Now many people on here want makers to increase quality and produce more accurate models and I guess that is what Hasegawa has done here.

blackwolfscd.

Contact me again after you climbed of that high horse of yours and knocked that chip of YOUR shoulder.

I also noticed that you avoided to answer the questions & examples I put forward, old technique and it says more about you than you realise.

FYI, I have build and bought models in 4 continents and spoken to HS in all of them, been closely associated with HS and Wholesalers on 3 continents.
But I guess only certain peoples opinion and experiences count for you.

QUOTE: You can see it your way and I'll see it the way it is.

Yeah, sure pull the other one it has got bells on.

See ya,

P.S.: Pity, that I haven't found the ignore feature for people like you.

Well, I guess he told me, huh?

Been in the industry, 'eh? Like you're the only one. Here, lemmee pat you on the back for awhile and you can give your arm a rest.

Some of the arguments you just made are self defeating or make no sense at all. Maybe they do make sense, but you certainly don't express yourself very well. I'd really like to carry on with this discussion but I need to be able to understand what it is that I'm reading. It would also help if you were on the same page, but clearly you didn't understand any of what I wrote. I guess that's the problem with 'crystal-clear' glasses, they ain't always that clear.

Tell you what, go back, read again, comprehend and then write something that someone can decipher which isn't double talk or drivel. Then maybe I'll do you the courtesy of a full retort.

Actually, I'm not even going to waste my time.

You are correct about one thing, we do have the right to disagree. You can see it your way and I'll see it the way it is.


Fade to Black...

blackwolfscd.

I disagree, I can buy many things in japan that cost more in their origin countries and vice-versa.
Been in the industry seen the markups myself both by wholesalers and retailers.

Example:
Italeri 1/48 C-130H sells on Squadron for $79.97(reduced from $95.00), my local LHS has the same kit on the shelf for $67,50.
I most likely could buy the kit and ship it to the USA cheaper than what it would cost you to get the SAME kit from Squadron.

Now, pls, explain to me how a Kit imported from Italy can be cheaper than the same kit in the USA (USA is closer to Europe I believe).

I doubt that Italeri charges different wholesale prices to the USA and to Japan(smaller market). So Japan pays the SAME wholesale price, most likely has HIGHER shipping costs and sells CHEAPER than a US online retailer.

Another point:

Yes, the prices varied in the list I supplied from HLJ (60% were discontinued), my point still stands if the $9 Kit is marked(Yen 1.400) and the NEW Decal included kit is marked $24(Yen 1.600) than there is something fishy going on.
OTOH, if the $9 kit is marked Yen 900 and the re-issue yen 2.000 than the new kit is substantially more expensive from the manufacturers site.

All I am saying people should do their homework before opening their mouth and slamming manufacturers.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, but for me the matter is crystal clear.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MadModelFactory Hasegawa or any other maker is NOT responsible for what their Kits sell overseas, they sell at wholesale prices and once the kit is shipped they are out of it.

Yes and no. Depends on what their wholesale price is for each item.

QUOTE: Most of the price increases don't come from the maker, but from shipping and wholesalers and retailers.

Are the manufacturers going to ship their stuff for free? No. They have to charge for shipping, which is normal business practice. Overseas shipping costs are a given and no secret to anyone.

Are the distributors and retailers going to eat shipping costs? No. Are they going to give the stuff away? No. They will sell the goods based on what they pay for them, INCLUDING shipping.

QUOTE: So WHO is too blame for those price fluctuations, *the SHOPS overseas*, go to your dealer and confront him with the japanese prices and ask him why the difference. Than get ready for some good explanations.

*BULL*

NO ONE is to 'BLAME', for the fact that a Japanese-made kit costs more in the USA than it does in Japan. There is no blame to be cast for normal business practice. My local hobby shops price merchandise according to what they pay for it. The distibutors from which they buy also price their merchandise according to what they pay. If any blame is to be cast then cast it on world governments whose policies make international shipping of goods a total pain in the ****** for the businessman and customer alike.

And, in any event, the fact that any boxing of a Hasegawa 1/72 F/A-18C is proportionately cheaper in Japan than in the USA (or anywhere else) is NOT the issue being discussed here. The issue being discussed is the fact that a kit in one box costs significantly more than the same basic kit in another box, no matter WHERE they're sold. The kits listed as examples from HLJ only serve to reinforce this fact. The approximate price spread on HLJ is from 1000 to 2000 yen, which is more or less proportionate to the price spread of $10 to $20 US at Squadron.

Hence, the argument that Japanese kits are more consistently priced in Japan than they are overseas is bull.

No matter where a given kit is sold, it comes from the same original source. If there are two different boxings of the same kit and one costs significantly more than the other, no matter where they're being sold, why is that?

The only remaining factor is the wholesale price, for which only the manufacturer is accountable. Period.

Do I blame the manufacturers for putting a higher price on a newer, slightly different version of an existing product? No. The points originally raised by wayne baker, and embellished upon by myself, as to why this is remain valid. The manufacturer has to spend more money to put these slightly different versions of existing products on the market and still make a profit. And there's nothing wrong with that. And there's nothing wrong with the fact that overseas retailers sell the same kits at a proportionately higher price than those in Japan. That's business and they have NO choice.

BTW, wholesale price/percentage isn't as big a 'trade secret' as it's made out to be.


Fade to Black...

No matter how you look at this subject ... it is still a lot cheaper and better for your mental health than GOLF ...

I really like my LHS but if I can find the same kit online or mailorder and pay less with shipping I'll buy it there. I just bought 5 ICM Spitfires online and it cost me $39.98 with shipping that's about $8 a kit they are $20 each in the hobby shops. SO the money I saved on the price of the kit can now go toward detail parts hehe.
Also I was a 72nd scale builder exclusively for 20 years mostly because of the cost. But lately the cost of a 48th scale is only $5 or $10 more then 72nd for most kits. Now I build mostly 48th with some 72nd in there. JOHN

I actually would worry more about the pricing of tools, to get all of the items needed on your tool list costs 100's if not thousands of dollars......and compared to some of the other hobbies......ie any Remote Control hobby, building real cars, airplanes, etc.....scale modeling to me seems pretty reasonable.

Don't go blaming the manufacturer too soon.

Japan has controlled pricing and similar boxed items will sell for a similar price, don't believe me verify an item's price with Sites like Rainbow 10 and Hobby Link Japan.

HLJ lists the following items on their website:
Hasegawa1/72 CF-188A Hornet "75th Anniversary Markings" --> Yen 1,400
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18C Hornet Chippy-Ho 2001 --> Yen 1,600
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18A Hornet "Adversary" --> Yen 1,600
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18C Hornet Stars & Stripes --> Yen 1,600
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18A Hornet "Blue Angels" --> Yen 1,000
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18C Hornet --> Yen 1,000
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18D Hornet USMC --> Yen 1,000
Hasegawa1/72 USN TF-18A Hornet --> Yen 1,000
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18F Super Hornet --> Yen 1,800
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18B Hornet "NASA" --> Yen 1,500
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18B Hornet "Top Gun" --> Yen 1,500
Hasegawa1/72 USMC F/A-18A Hornet --> Yen 1,000
Hasegawa1/72 USN Blue Angels F/A-18A Hornet --> Yen 1,000
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18C Hornet "1996 Dragon 300" --> Yen 1,500
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18C Hornet "VFA-27 Maces" --> Yen 1,200
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18 Hornet "World Hornet" --> Yen 1,200
Hasegawa1/72 USN F/A-18C Hornet "Wings 97 Atsugi" --> Yen 1,200
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18D Hornet "VMFA(AW)-225 Vikings" --> Yen 1,500
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18C Hornet "Golden Dragons 1998" --> Yen 1,500
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18C Hornet w/Guided Missile --> Yen 1,800
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18C Hornet "Chippy-Ho! Atsugi 25th Annive... --> Yen 1,500
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18C Hornet "Atsugi CAG Combo" --> Yen 2,000
Hasegawa1/72 USN F/A-18C Hornet --> Yen 1,200
Hasegawa1/72 USMC F/A-18D Hornet --> Yen 1,200
Hasegawa1/72 F/A-18 Hornet w/Painted Canopy --> Yen 900
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The yen prices are also printed on the boxes, normally after the Item number.
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Those Kits CANNOT be sold in japan above those prices, discounts from 5~20% are quiet common though, and the shops still make a nice profit on them. Sorry, can't reveal what the actual wholesale price/percentage is on Kits.

Now to me atleast all the items are similarly priced, nothing to justify the said price ranges quoted by the thread starter.
So WHO is too blame for those price fluctuations, the SHOPS overseas, go to your dealer and confront him with the japanese prices and ask him why the difference. Than get ready for some good explanations.

Hasegawa or any other maker is NOT responsible for what their Kits sell overseas, they sell at wholesale prices and once the kit is shipped they are out of it.

Most of the price increases don't come from the maker, but from shipping and wholesalers and retailers.

QUOTE: Originally posted by wayne baker New box, new decals, you have to pay someone current prices to design and manufacture them. New sprue means a new mold you have to pay for. Materials you use to make the plastic, you pay the current price.

DING DING DING!! Someone hit the nail on the head.

That's exactly why prices are higher on certain reissues. It's not the only reason, I'm sure, but there's no doubt that it's the prime reason.

Also, many of these reissues are limited runs and when they sell out, they're gone. The company moves on and makes another limited run reissue. So not only do they have to regain costs on the new decals/box etc, they usually have to do so with fewer units sold.

The reason that they can do this successfully is because they know that there are folks out there who will buy this stuff no matter what. Sure, it's the same basic kit that was released last year or five years ago or whatever. But there's alotta people who collect, and they'll buy ten boxings of the same kit because they're all different.

I used to be one of those people! Still am to a degree...


Fade to Black...

The high prices also hits the local Hobby shops, about the only thing I buy from mine is paints and look at the prices of those! I look for the sales from Squadron and other on-line mail order places. Got the Trumpeter F-105G at Squadron the other week for a special subscriber sale price of $59. A hobby shop can't beat that.

I agree, the modeling companies are pricing a lot of potential hobbyist, out of the hobby. Maybe they feel as if they're pricing is justified, and if adding to the price of a kit is their way of recouping production cost, they should spread it out over a given period of time. Not try to make all their investment back in the first couple rounds of deliveries.

It might take them twice as long to recover their investment, but maybe not..... by offering the FA-18 kit at, lets say, $14.95, they probably would have sold twice as many kits. That's what mass production is all about, spreading the cost (and thus the profits) around. Even giving the manufacturers a good return on the ACTUAL value of what's sent out in the box, and the division of expenses, still means the price would be much lower.

Where's the other money going? Where do you think; Filling the bank accounts of the company owners. "Oh boy, that means all kinds of new kits coming out!!"........ Yes, either that, or most likely; "Re-package old designs with new decal & instruction sheets, and sell them at sky high prices!!" (demonstrated by the constant re-release of old designs) Most (if not all) of the production expenses have already been recovered back when the kit was originally marketed, and I understand they must cover the new decal sheet (which is probably an Out-Sourced item anyway), but even that shouldn't drive the kit cost up over 125% of the original price tag!


Frank
_______

HE00438 1/72 F/A-18C Hornet Back in Stock! $9.98 $8.97
HE00548 1/72 F/A-18F Super Hornet Back in Stock! $24.98 $22.47

I know that the super hornet is a new tooling but still.. That F-18c is also on the site with new decals for around $18. I've been buying the cheapy kits and getting markings that I want from aftermarket companies. Rant... rant...

The thing is that on squadron you can get a hase F-18 for $9, then a couple of entries down is the same kit with new decals/box art for $18-$24. Oil prices and my income hasen't increased that much.

Remember plastic comes from oil, so the oil prices have a lot to do with it. But when they go down they sure don't mark down the plastic kits! They will get every penny they can out of us! You just have to watch out for the good deals!

It's the way of the world these days I guess. I remember when the first 1/32 scale Tomcat came out at a then astronomical price of $70. Who'd have thought that today some main stream kits can adverage over $100. I know production costs are going up and when even Revellogram moved it's plant to China things aren't going to change.
I just hope the future for modeling doesn't price itself out of the market for new commers to the hobby.
I'll get off the box now.

Higher labor and materials costs? My brother had a drug store. IF he had some stock left and got some in at a higher price, he raised the prices on the old stuff. I asked him why. He said if he didn't get the current price on all the stuff, he couldn't afford to buy more.

New box, new decals, you have to pay someone current prices to design and manufacture them. New sprue means a new mold you have to pay for. Materials you use to make the plastic, you pay the current price.