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104, over and out

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Canada / Czech Republic
104, over and out
Posted by upnorth on Friday, January 16, 2004 6:56 PM
Well, the day is almost upon the aviation world, the last vestige of the Century Series fighters will scream off into history, at full burner most certainly.

Its difficult to believe that next month will mark the 50th anniversary of the F-104 Starfighter's first flight, I don't think anyone could have forseen that sleek shape in active military service for as long as it has remained so.

From what I've heard, the Italian Air Force will see its last 104 out of service before 2004 is out.

It'll be sad to see this Cold War classic go, but she did well for herself and from what I understand, most who flew her loved every minute of it.

A moment of silence, so we may enjoy the sound of her last trip to full burner and her last sonic boom to the fullestBig Smile [:D]


Former Canadian Armed Forces CF-104 seen preserved in a museum in 1992.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 16, 2004 7:14 PM
I don't know if it is the last hoorah upnorth... I read an article that they are going to take the wings off one and try to break the land speed record. Come to think of it that would be a unique modeling subject.Big Smile [:D]
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Canada / Czech Republic
Posted by upnorth on Friday, January 16, 2004 7:17 PM
Let us hope a couple of museums can keep one or two airworthy.

I know its not a British jet, but maybe that fellow in South Africa that runs Thunder City would make a grab for one just to keep a true jet classic going.

I'm sure some folks would put out big bucks to get a sound barrier breaking ride in a 104.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 16, 2004 7:42 PM
the Renalds Museum at Wetaskewan (Alberta, Canada) Has one of those planes on site. I believe it may be that one accually..
  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Friday, January 16, 2004 8:16 PM
You guys know that there is one flying in private ownership? I can't remember the couples name who owns it, but I saw it on Discovery wings and they fly it at airshows.

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Lafayette, LA
Posted by Melgyver on Friday, January 16, 2004 9:38 PM
This reminds me I need to pick up one of Hasegawa's 1/48th F-104's. Saw one at an Airshow 10 or 12 years back that was polished and looked like it just came off the assembly line. I'll have to dig though my pictures. Don't remember if it was Air Guard or what.

Clear Left!

Mel

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Saturday, January 17, 2004 1:11 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by scottrc

You guys know that there is one flying in private ownership? I can't remember the couples name who owns it, but I saw it on Discovery wings and they fly it at airshows.


Go to www.starfighters.net
You will find all of the info on the TWO flying CF-104s at this time. They have a third that they are currently working on.
I got to watch one of them fly at the Fort Smith Airshow last October 11 and 12. VERY impressive indeed!!! The two seater had broken something after they had arrived and they had it set up for static display.
You can also purchase decals for these two planes on their website.

Randie Cowboy [C):-)]
Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
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  • From: Kent, England
Posted by nmayhew on Saturday, January 17, 2004 3:21 AM
hi guysSmile [:)]
firstly jets aren't my thing (me262, i'll make an exception for!!Cool [8D]), but i have a question regarding the starfighter: was it really "loved bythose who flew her every minute"?? only i seem to remember seeing a documentary saying that it was erratic on take-off/landing and thus not the most popular jet with pilots, who preferred things to go smoothly in those departments!!Black Eye [B)][:0]
please correct me guys if i'm wrong, and perhaps mention which jet the programme i saw actually was about if you can.
regards,
nick
Kind regards, Nicholas
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 17, 2004 3:30 AM
I saw a pair of them at Mc Dill in Tampa about 6 or so years ago. The noise of that bird is unique, as well as the 3 blue rings of flame behind it. I wont forget it. Bow [bow]


  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Saturday, January 17, 2004 10:09 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by nmayhew

hi guysSmile [:)]
was it really "loved bythose who flew her every minute"?? only i seem to remember seeing a documentary saying that it was erratic on take-off/landing and thus not the most popular jet with pilots, who preferred things to go smoothly in those departments!!Black Eye [B)][:0]

regards,
nick


I recall reading once that the cause for it's unpopularity was the narrowness of the main landing gear. Take-off and landing was very touchy at best.
I don't know if that is what the program you saw was referring to or not.

Randie Cowboy [C):-)]
Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
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  • From: Manila, Philippines
Posted by shrikes on Saturday, January 17, 2004 10:19 AM
It's nice to hear that this old plane will live on trying to conquer the land speed record!
As an aside, i read somewhere here on the forum that the flight manual of the 104 (At least i think it was for this plane) listed the same solution to most problems that would occur in flight: Eject. Tongue [:P]
Blackadder: This plan's as cunning as a fox that used to be Professor of cunning at Oxford University but has now moved on and is working with the U.N at the high commission of cunning planning
  • Member since
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  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Saturday, January 17, 2004 10:51 AM
The movie "The Right Stuff" comes to mind.

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by FreedomEagle1953 on Saturday, January 17, 2004 1:00 PM
Aaaahhh ... the F-104 Starfighter ... a truely outstanding aircraft !!! Bow [bow]

FreedomEagle1953

Chicago, IL area

"keep on building 'em ... but don't glue your fingers together"

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Saturday, January 17, 2004 1:17 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by chopperfan

QUOTE: Originally posted by scottrc

You guys know that there is one flying in private ownership? I can't remember the couples name who owns it, but I saw it on Discovery wings and they fly it at airshows.


Go to www.starfighters.net
You will find all of the info on the TWO flying CF-104s at this time. They have a third that they are currently working on.
I got to watch one of them fly at the Fort Smith Airshow last October 11 and 12. VERY impressive indeed!!! The two seater had broken something after they had arrived and they had it set up for static display.
You can also purchase decals for these two planes on their website.

Randie Cowboy [C):-)]


I forgot to mention that while the plane is on the ground. They have a cover that goes over the leading edge of the wing.
It is so thin and sharp, that it can actually cut you.

Randie Cowboy [C):-)]

Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 17, 2004 1:25 PM
I must admit that it is a really nice plane even if it "killed" the Valkyrie.....
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 17, 2004 9:26 PM
Hey Nick, I too remember seeing something about that... If I remember correctly the disgruntled pilots had a nickname of some sort for it. Something menacing like "Widowmaker" or some such thing. I can't remember exactly. I have also heard that on ground stability was a problem with those wheels so close together. It would still have to be one of the coolest jets ever.Cool [8D]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, January 18, 2004 11:17 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by thyamis

I must admit that it is a really nice plane even if it "killed" the Valkyrie.....


I think it was an F-4 that killed the Valkyie
  • Member since
    March 2003
Posted by rangerj on Sunday, January 18, 2004 1:37 PM
It was an F-104 that got sucked up into the B-70s wake turbulance and caused the demise of both aircraft.

If I remember right it was Grenamier (sp) that owned an F-104 and used it for air racing. The aircraft was lost off the California coast. I think the pilot ejected, but that part of the story I cannot recall. This was 10 to 15 years ago. I recall seing a couple of stories in aviation magazines about F-104s in private hands, but do not recall that they were being flown.

I have seen two F104s in Canadian museums, and the Air Force Museum has one mounted on a pylon as a "Gate Guard".

The there are a few really distinct F-104 paint jobs. The Canadian all red aircraft with the white arrow (Revell 1/32), the black and yellow "Tiger Meet" aircraft (Monogram 1/4/8), and the Greek Air Force black with a mural of Mt Olympus (I think that is what it is) currently available from Hasagawa in 1/48th scale. I just ordered the Hasagawa kit and cant wait to start it (This decade maybe).

The F-104 was designed to be a fighter/interceptor period. It was intended to intercept Russian Bombers. It was the first aircraft to be fitted with the 20MM Vulcan Cannon (Gattling Gun). It was to "Scramble", climb, intercept, and shoot down enemy aircraft. Notice that landing, refueling, rearming, etc. was not included in the mission. It was considered a one way mission.

I have an uncle who flew F-104s in the early days. He said it was a fighter pilots airplane, but very unforgiving. He said, "If you let the airplane get ahead of you it will kill you ". He was subsequently transferred to SAC and flew B-52s in "Fail Safe" missions for 8 years. After 22 years of flying a heart murmur was discovered and he was grounded. He did his last 8 years "pushing paper" "flying a desk".

He said the F-104 was by far the most exciting airplane he ever flew. The "Missle With a Man in it", is a good description of the airplane.

The F-104 suffered the fate of most of the aircraft concieved in the late 40s and early 50s. Technology has, and continues, to change rapidly. But you have to admit it had a fantastic 40+ year run. The U.S. got its moneys worth, and so did a half dozen or so NATO countries.

I think NASA is still operating a few F-104s, but I have not seen or read anything about NASA 104s in a few years.

The F-104 suffered the same indignity that most U.S. aircraft do. The aircraft are designed to meet a specific requirement, and if the aircraft does that well, sooner or later some idiot want to hang all kinds of garbage on the air plane to accomplish a mission it was never intended to perform. Go figure!

There is nothing more grotesque than an F-104 with bombs hanging under its wings.

Long live the Starfighter. rangerj
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Monday, January 19, 2004 6:29 AM
I have often heard the 104 referred to as a 'misile with a man strapped to it.'.

My father in law was in the RAF in Germany in the 60's and remembered that the yused to watch 104s if they came into the base, as they had a habit of going off the end of the runway!! He figured that they were at least entertaining!

Karl

Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

  • Member since
    March 2003
Posted by rangerj on Monday, January 19, 2004 1:21 PM
Karl,

The F-104 has a 21 ft wingspan, tip to tip. It was unstable at slow speeds and had to be landed "hot" (fast). Pilots frequently ran the aircraft off the end of the runway because of the fast landing speed in combination with misjudging their "touchdown" point .

They were taught that being "low and slow" in a Starfighter was a deadly sitiation. As the experience levels grew, and the training improved, the NATO countries F-104 accident rates deminished to near ZERO. This is true of the USAF also.

Most pilots who learned to fly this airplane loved it. This is evidenced by the long service life it had in Eurpoe, as well as by the number of European nations that bought it. In North America the U.S. and Canada kept it in their inventories a long time also.

But, like all good thing it too must come to an end. rangerj
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Central USA
Posted by qmiester on Monday, January 19, 2004 5:21 PM
I have heard there were a couble of reasons pilots didn't like the 104

A. With out power it had the glide ratio of a lawn dart

B. If you ejected in the downward ejection seat below 1000 ft agl, you and the seat would reach the ground long before the chute deployed.

By the way, your radio procedure leaves something to be desired. Would get you reamed (talked to?) in any Army unit I know of. "Over" means I have finished my message and am waiting for a reply and "Out" means I have finished my message and don't want to hear any more from you. One of the best (and funniest) "talking to's I ever witnessed came because of the "improper use of radio procedure". Early one evening all the commanders were at the TOC for a meeting and our Ops Sgt got on the radio and sent "All stations this net, this is Tango 30, commo check, over". All the replies came back as per our SOP - "this is (call sign), read you Lima Charlie (loud and clear), out" until the Bn Co's driver pops up with "This is Sierra Zero Six Alfa - I read you licken chicken, out". The look on sarge's face was priceless and when it dawned on him that S06A was parked just out side the door of the TOC it got even better. The sarge spoke with the young troop for a good 20 minutes and didn't repeat a word or phrase in the entire time. A highly educational experience for all. Laughed about it for days.
Quincy
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Canada / Czech Republic
Posted by upnorth on Monday, January 19, 2004 8:24 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Graham

the Renalds Museum at Wetaskewan (Alberta, Canada) Has one of those planes on site. I believe it may be that one accually..


You're right Graham, that is the Reynolds Alberta Museum's 104.

Its in the special paint sceme for 417 Squadron's disbandment as the CF-104 training unit at CFB Cold Lake, Alberta in 1982. It was retired and put into storage in that scheme.

All the Canadian CF-104 colour birds are available in aftermarket decal sheets from Leading Edge. Additionally, Leading Edge also made a nice set of resin radar warning recievers for accurately depicting the CF-104s that were stationed in Germany While we still had bases there.

The Luftwaffe made some of what I think were the most spectacular 104 colour birds ever done, some of them were simply jaw dropping.
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Bicester, England
Posted by KJ200 on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 2:20 AM
Ranger,

I think my father in law was used to seeing Hunters, Lighnings, Sabres et al touch down in the right place, so the 104 provided that extra thrill for the ground crews.

If memeory serves me a certain Europen country's pilots had reputation for doing this on a regular basis.

Karl

Currently on the bench: AZ Models 1/72 Mig 17PF

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 10:04 AM
That's a great story... I'll bet everyone besides the Sgt. that heard it were rolling.Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]
  • Member since
    March 2003
Posted by rangerj on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 10:37 AM
Proper radio proceedure? While waiting in line for take-off the following was heard.
Tower: Tango Romeo 972 are you ready for take-off?
TR-972: Give me the word and I'll fly like a bird.
Tower: You have my consent to leave the cement.

As an addition, re the 104, it initially had a downward ejection sequence, and yes the pilots were not happy with it. As the Zero-Zero ejection seat evolved the 104 was changed to the uppward ejection.

Like any aircraft, it went through an evolution, and changes were made to correct its less desirable characteristics. Yes, it had zero glide ratio, and had to be flow to the ground, but it was not intended to be a glider!

Most great fighter aircraft have a VERY narrow envelope of stability. If it were not for the "fly-by-wire" computer making thousands of corrections per minute, the F-117 and other modern aircraft woud be disasters.

Oh well, every aircraft has its pluses and minuses. rangerj
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