Luftwaffe Paint Colours Revisited

Great post, Snap

Very nicely done,,,,     Thanks for all the good info

VERY extensive reference chart. Thank you for all of your hard work on it.

That could really be useful. Thanks for posting.

82, 83, 84,  Oh No!      82, 83, 84,  Oh No!     82, 83, 84,  Oh No!

But seriously, great post.  Get that box to the Smithsonian, or a British Museum, or somewhere.

Nice job, alot of work gone into that. I was woundering what colour i needed for German nightfighters. And now i find out its the one col,our Xtracolor don't do.

Thanks for posting that.

jeaton01

82, 83, 84,  Oh No!      82, 83, 84,  Oh No!     82, 83, 84,  Oh No!

But seriously, great post.  Get that box to the Smithsonian, or a British Museum, or somewhere.

 

Thanks. I know that there is much argument over RLM 82, 83 & 84. The fact that the complete paint chip for the Luftwaffe is about 24 pages long along with both printed and hand notated details and paint chips.

There are definate paint chips for RLM 82 and 83 and the variants for those numbers. Those I have matched 100% and listed above, so to produce RLM 84 and it's varants you have a fighting start.

What you have to keep in mind is that at this stage of the war German industry was in chaos. Lots of materiel was painted in the field, especially aircraft. RLM 84 was a paper creation so that field crews could mix and match from stocks without fear of getting dragged away by military police or Gestapo under treason crimes etc. Each crew/staffel etc could happily create their own colour variants under RLM 84 as there was no official shade(s) for that one and both written and printed notations have no indication as to % mix of the shades authorised to mix up RLM 84

The exception to this is RLM 83 V.3 which is hand annotated to be a 60/40 mix of the RLM 83 V.1 & V.2 shades. This I have put in the notes box on my original post.

What does this mean in modellers usage terms. It means that because there is no official shade but a basic guide to what shades to use ( I would avoid RLM83 v.3 as that is a mix in itself) to mix RLM 84 and its shade variants that the modeller has a wide open mixing opportunity and can be guided by photographs of actual aircraft.

Note of Caution.

Research can only take you so far. Colour period photos have to be used as a very basic guide along with reference to what colour was used when. WWII colour photos are rare, and also because of the colour film was not really as good as people think it was, along with over and under exposure colours that appear are sometimes not as true as you think they are. Also you have to take note of colour fading and useage under combat conditions. staining, patch painting after damage repair etc also alters our perceptions on what the actual colours are.... and really - who the heck can tell the proper colours from a black and white WWII under or over exposed photo?

What does it come down to?

Experience! that's it. Ask the question... Does it Look right? if it does then is usually is, but getting a paint job right is about experimentation and practice!

And as to the box full of information. That belongs to a company in Germany and I have promised to take it back to their archive. It is up to them to donate it to a museum, but it usefu to them as part of their companies history. It's only on loan to me until I have completed all the translation and paint matching.

James

snapdragonxxx,

Your post provides great information.  I'd hope the company that had the information would make their chips available to museums.

While I've yet to get to a WWII German A/C up on the workbench I do have a few questions:

1.  Is it your intent to do a compare and contrast with model paints from other model paint manufacturers?  I fully appreciate expenditure of limited time. 

2.  Would you and would the company be willing to share info with IPMS who may be able to fund further in-depth research?  Model paint manufacturers?

3.  Is it your opinion that Vallejo paints are accurate across all major countries participating in WWII?

4.  You made reference to the Wehrmacht in your original post.  Wehrmacht covers all services.  Is that what you meant to convey?  Does Vallejo paint accuracy also apply to early German armor?  I have personal interest in this area with a Pzkw I and Pzkw II in various stages of completion.

Again, thank you for sharing your efforts.  Most appreciated.

Carl

Hi Carl,

Thanks for your post, questions and comments. I will answer them in order.

1.  It will be possible to cross reference colours through various ranges of paints and paint manufacturers. Vallejo do have a cross reference section on their website and there are other websites that do colour matching between paint manufacturers. I used Vallejo becase of the following factors:-

A) It is a paint that I have used for a number of years and I find that it is an excellent quality paint with a strong pigment and good coverage. It is also possible to thin this stuff down with normal tapwater for use with an airbrush (not that I have one as yet!) therefore a bottle goes a very long way which cuts costs down!

B)  Vallejo have a number of different ranges, but their Model Color range is a large one and has many different shades available

C) I have quite a few bottles in my box and so seemed to be a good place to start.

D) It doesn't smell or cause me to see large green spiders climbing up the walls which is a good thing!

2. I don't know about the company in Germany. You must realise that there is still a stigma attached to these kind of things and information. It is slowly being overcome, but I did have to do lots of persuading and promising to get my grubby little paws on this documantation. I will talk to them, but I can't make any promises. I will only be too glad to make my own matching results to the IPMS and their members available because it is in all model makers interests if that is acceptable and if any magazine wishes me to write an article or two I will only be too happy to do so.

3. This I am not sure of. Certainly the same shades and colours could be used by different military arms and countries and indeed I have found a 100% shade match for RAF Sky in the Vallejo paint range and I am sure that other matches for the RAF could be found, but I would need samples or original unfaded paint chips to be able to match. It would be an interesting concept bo be able to do this just to see the result.

4. I used the Wehrmacht as a term of reference for the Standard German army of the period and lumping the SS under that roof. Although they were too different arms they still used the same paint!

Indeed the Paint accuracy does go as far as pre and early WWII for German armour, and to start you off here is my listing up to the chage in 1943.

Wehrmacht/SS Vehicle Colours

 I hope this helps and answers your questions. You might fins that the Panzergrau base colour darker than you expect, but it is a 100% shade match. I will post my work for the German land forces in the armour forum wher I am sure that there will be a discussion

James

Snap:

Thanks for this post!! Very thorough. I have actually been toying with the idea of slowly replacing my paints (as they go out) with Vallejo. I have looked over the lines and they do have a very extensive selection. The charts you listed help are very helpful, as it is hard to gauge the colors by looking and "chips" online. Many thanks.

Nice find and work there! Any chance you can match the paint chips to Humbrol paints?

Now thats interesting. We had this disscussion a few weeks ago about early war German armour being two colours upto the invasion of france. I had assumed it was Pz Grey, didn't realise it was 7016. Thanks for that info.

STFD637

Snap:

Thanks for this post!! Very thorough. I have actually been toying with the idea of slowly replacing my paints (as they go out) with Vallejo. I have looked over the lines and they do have a very extensive selection. The charts you listed help are very helpful, as it is hard to gauge the colors by looking and "chips" online. Many thanks.

Like you, I've been slowly moving towards Vallejo paints.  After watching Mig's video on acrylic paints, the one where he finishes and weathers a Pz II completely with acrylics, I'm sold. 

Snap, are the Model Air colors the same as the Model Color ones?

As I don't yet use an airbrush ( but I am toying with the ideaI I have no real knowledge about the model air range. I do know that the range is not a big one at the moment. I would have thought that most colours would be matched with the Model Color range, but until I have a play with them myself I can't say.

I will have a look round Vallejo's website and see what I come up with and report back to this thread

James

Having surfed around Vallejo's website They do have a listing in the model air section for RLM colours

RLM-02 Grau 044
RLM-65 Hellblau 008
RLM-66 Schwartzgrau 055
RLM-70 Schwartzgrün 021
RLM-71 Dunkelgrün 015
RLM-73 Grün 016
RLM-74 Graugrün 054
RLM-75 Grauviolet 052
RLM-76 Lichtblau 046
RLM-79 Sandgelb 034
RLM-80 Olivegrün 017
RLM-81 Braunviolet 043
RLM-82 Lichtgrün 022
RLM-83 Dunkelgrün 013

I can also add These to the list

057 Black  RLM 22
001 White  RLM 21

There are quite a few colours and shades MIA in the model air range as of yet. If these colours are shade accurate then Battle of Britain fighters and bombers are doable, as is middle and late war. Cockpit interiors (RLM 02 & RLM 66) is in there. What is missing are colours for hydraulic, air, fuel lubricant and water lines, one of the seaplane exterior colours and the underside Med theatre colour to name but a few.

THere is a model air 16 box RLM set available. How close they actually are I have No idea, perhaps someone with an airbrush would like to do a comparison between the model Color and the model air or if some kind person has an airbrush that they could kindly donate to a military veteran???

James

Heck James, this is an amazing thread. Maybe I'm a bit impressionable seeing as I'm just beginning to dabble in the dark side (Luftwaffe camo colors) but as I see it your information is some of the most important on RLM colours I've seen in a while of prowling the net in search of the definitive RLM reference. While this may not be it, in fact I've come to believe the subject is so huge & at the same time ill defined there possibly cannot be such a thing, you have helped to put this in some sort of handy context. It is good to see that many of your matches agree with Peter Hawkins recently published chart, though a few do not. I's love to see some side by side matches of your Vallejo chips with the corresponding RLM chips. A side by side match like this goes a long way to compensate for differences in monitor settings. I guess I should now confess to being a great fan of Vallejo Model Color so my views might be a tad biased. I now need to get the ones I don't have & make up my own reference chart. Any chance of sharing the Vallejo RAF Sky match up? There was a long thread on this on Britmodeller not so long ago & from memery, Vallejo didn't do so well so maybe the right one wasn't tried. Thanks again for a truly valuable htread.

Steve.

Thanks very much for taking the time to post these. Although new to the hobby, quite new actually, I want to endeavour to get the painting correct. This will assist me greatly. Great job!

Danny

Years ago MONOGRAM PUBLISHING did an extensive camoflage notebook of Luftwaffe Colours covering the periods Spanish Civil War through the end of WW2.

They also included paint chips!!!!!

Also Italian Colours were added as a bonus.

I have found this notebook to be extremely useful and the Smithsonian Silver Hill restoration folks make use of those chips also 

BUT 

What you found is a truly like a time machine to the past.

I too have recently (early this year) discovered Vallejo Paints and have to admit they are wonderful!! Easy to use, easy to thin and clean. I'm finding it hard to part with my extensive enamel collection of a couple 100 tins of Precision, Compucolour, and Humbrol paints!! I do have an exhaust booth set up in the basement but with time always at a premium the Vallejo wins out most of the time.

Also a company out of Poland "Hitaki" seems to have some promising colours too any opinion on them??

Great information.  Wondering if you would be able to PM me the spreadsheet as the new format cuts off the text a bit.

Thanks,

Matt

Hi, would you have tested vallejo for the Ral paint change after 1943? The post is a great reference for modelers looking for an accurate paint chart. Late war, 1944-45 paint chips, color charts and their associated materials are very hard to find , there are lots of varations and original chip set cost an great deal of money. Because of the Ral paint change arfter the war lots of the colors aren't accurate if looking at their website.

Glad this has been posted - it saves me raising a new topic that's been bugging me.

I have the AK Air Luftwaffe set and have used the RLM74/75 paints for camo. I never seem to get the right look. The two colours just seem to be to similar and any definition of the camo is lost.

Is it my clunky skills? is it these shades? Any other manufacturers have better versions?

I should update this as Vallejo have now released new paints that are original chipset matches.

Luftwaffe builder, welcome to the forum.

I would advise you to move to an airbrush as the updated listing will be for the Vallejo model air range. These are formulated for airbrush use and you will get much better results with them. You can use a paint brush, but the results will not be the same at all.