Red Tails spoiler

DoogsATX

... If I think of Red Tails in the same way as 300, I'm better with it. Though the physics of Lightning's P-51 taking a head-on rain of 30mm shells and not shredding to pieces does bother me and probably always will.

Doogs,

If they had made a good documentary about the Tuskeegee airmen in combat, I would have watched it and appreciated it, along with a relative handful of historians, buffs, modellers, etc.  Hollywood (and probably everyone who has ever embellished fact into legend) is looking for a bigger payoff than that.  The older I get, the more I try to just take stuff for what it is.  Red Tails is way better than a chick flick (no offense to any and all chick-flickers out there ...), and, like I said in my first post above, a story worth the time, and whatever suspension of disbelief that's required (for the duration of the film, anyway).  The point at the movie's heart is valid, as you pointed out, even if the facts are a little, ah - "compressed"?  And CGI just keeps getting better and better ...

Like Nick Cage's character says in Raising Arizona, "There's what's right and there's what's right, and never the twain shall meet."

Ordie

DoogsATX

Though the physics of Lightning's P-51 taking a head-on rain of 30mm shells and not shredding to pieces does bother me and probably always will.

Probably not near as much as the fictional 262 pilot!

You bring up a really great point, Ordie. I think it's important when watching Red Tails to keep in mind Lucas' aesthetic toward old serials - there's a free-wheeling, old-fashioned fun and derring-do to the whole proceeding, just as there is with Star Wars or Raiders of the Lost Ark. I remember coming out of it thinking it felt like the kind of war movie that doesn't get made anymore - and yes it drops the ball on some finer points of accuracy and draws characters in broad archetypes. It romanticizes the hell out of WWII aerial combat. But does it get across the key message that a group of African American pilots, through their skill and daring, overcame massive obstacles to win respect and even admiration? You bet it does.

I keep meaning to break it out for my four-year-old son to watch - the wife's still a bit "oh noes, it has guns and violence" - but she'll just have to suck it up in this instance.

One thing that galls me about most historical films is how absolutely fast and loose they play with history. Gladiator, for example. While there are parts of the movie that I love, I can't really watch it these days. Aside from the fact that Marcus Aurelius was an emperor, Commodus was an emperor, and gladiators fought in the Colosseum, it gets literally nothing right. It botched the way the legions fought, on the small side, and made a total mess of history with the "restore the Republic" business. In actual history, Commodus' assassination (in his bath by a wrestling partner) broke something loose in the Empire, and within a short time the Praetorian Guard was auctioning off the emperorship to the highest bidder. Inspiring, no?

Through this lens, one of my hands-down favorite historical films is 300. It gets the big and the small things right. It's the only film I've ever seen that more or less accurately captures a Greek phalanx in action. It nails in the broad strokes what went down at Thermopylae. It's not so much inaccurate as it is embellished. To me, it's the story as the Spartans would want it told, with themselves being more bad*** than humanly possible and the enemy being more numerous, more intimidating, and more overwhelming than in reality. 

If I think of Red Tails in the same way as 300, I'm better with it. Though the physics of Lightning's P-51 taking a head-on rain of 30mm shells and not shredding to pieces does bother me and probably always will.

Finally saw Red Tails today, and thoroughly enjoyed it.  Hollywood compresses the the truth and mello-dramatizes history.  They bend physics when they have to to get it all in the frame.  They also morph fact into legend, and always have.  That's what they do.  This is a story worth telling, and worth watching, inspired by true events (which disclaimer is splashed upon the screen at the very beginning).  As the reporter tells Jimmy Stewart's character in the last scene of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence, "When legend and fact differ, print the legend."

My six year old grandson watched it with me, and he was mesmerized.  He began asking me questions about WWII, a first.  Then he asked me if that was the war I was in, and I explained the difference to him, that I wasn't born until four years after WWII ended, etc.  Also a first ... the beginnings of awareness and perspective.

Yes, I thoroughly enjoyed it.  I will watch it again tomorrow with my wife, who couldn't watch today.  She'll like the love interest:  it'll keep her watching the rest of the film.  Meanwhile, my grandson is showing some real interest in my model airplanes since watching it this afternoon, yet another first ...

Highly recommended .

Dambusters? I sure hope not. Do we really need another WWII flik? I'm hoping Mr. Jackson sticks to his passion for the WWI birds and goes that route. I'm sure it would be better than 'Flyboys' (which wasn't really that bad, but not up to The Blue Max standards).

I picked up the DVD at BJ`s Wholesale store for $15.  I liked it...had to sit thru "Why  we fight" twice `cause I couldn`t find the remote for my DVD player. Also...don`t know if it`s just me or my equipment but the planes all looked kinda `stubby` to me...prolly the aspect ratio on my TV was set wrong. This movie is a lot better than the first "Tuskegee Airmen"...just couldn`t buy "Theo" flying an airplane....

That must have been a wishful thinking/speculative rumor about The Pacific. The word from HBO and other sources was that is was going to be based primarily off the Sledge and Leicke books, with additional stuff to include Basilone's story.

I would love to see an HBO mini-series along the lines of Band of Brothers or The Pacific done about WWII aviation.  Lots of possibilities . . . . Flying Tigers, Battle of Britain, 8th Air Force, Cactus Air Force, Naval Aviation in the Pacific, etc.

IIRC, wern't there rumors originally that one of the main characters in "The Pacific" that they were going to follow was a naval aviator?  Seems like I read that somewhere then was disappointed when I watched it and never saw that side of the war. :(

Well the fact that a script is being written for Dambusters is a positive sign! Too bad the interference...

The FNG interjects:

On another forum (dedicated to virtual aerial combat  ) we discussed the possibility of taking old movies and redoing some of the combat scenes, adding new content. (Hey! They did it for Star Trek!)  Perhaps a bit beyond the ability of average Sim Pilots today (but not by much!).  Computer gaming CGI is advancing quite rapidly.

I suggested we take "Fighter Squadron" and get rid of those P-51s painted as German fighters!

Hans von Hammer

Well I know Peter Jackson's been making rumbling about doing Dambusters or a WWI aerial movie for awhile now.

Heh.. Probably doesn't wanna make it because of Gibson's dog's name..

The PC police have already had a shot at that. The dog's name in the remake will be "Digger" Never mind historical accuracy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2002027/Dambusters-dog-renamed-Digger-remake-iconic-film.html

Hans von Hammer

Well I know Peter Jackson's been making rumbling about doing Dambusters or a WWI aerial movie for awhile now.

Heh.. Probably doesn't wanna make it because of Gibson's dog's name..

and to think that Alan Parker lifted those scenes directly and put them into The Wall... History can be blunt...

Well I know Peter Jackson's been making rumbling about doing Dambusters or a WWI aerial movie for awhile now.

Heh.. Probably doesn't wanna make it because of Gibson's dog's name..

Hans von Hammer

Could you dig The Flying Tigers or The Hunters re-made with today's CGI (and a little scrip[t-tweaking)?  Man, if I only had the money to remake some of the classics..  Kinda like the idea, it's like I do with Monogram kits.. Remake the classics..

Yes I could... and for The Hunters, real Migs could be had for a dime a dozen these days in Eastern Euope for the ground scenes. There were rumors online that Peter Jackson was going to remake The Dambusters. But those seem to have faded. A great aviation movie that only needs a little tweaking to the script. And no bloody romantic subplot to worry about.  Mr Jackson's CGI biplanes (Helldivers?) in the ending of King Kong were gorgeous! Thats the part I wanted to see and it did not disappoint. Make it look like a real event not a video game trying to fill the sky in every possible place...

Hans von Hammer

 

Now how can you as a red blooded American child of the Cold War era not like a John Wayne movie?

 

*GASP*  No, No, No, i never said that....  That would get my dog-tags separated for sure.. 

 

 

Now if we can get Hollywood to do a WWII (or Korea or Vietnam) air war movie along the lines of Private Ryan, Blakhawk Down, or We Were Soldiers... no un neccesary subplots just the main story. Or the HBO/Hanks/Spielberg team to do another 10 hour series for the air side...

 

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about...

Could you dig The Flying Tigers or The Hunters re-made with today's CGI (and a little scrip[t-tweaking)?  Man, if I only had the money to remake some of the classics..  Kinda like the idea, it's like I do with Monogram kits.. Remake the classics..

Well I know Peter Jackson's been making rumbling about doing Dambusters or a WWI aerial movie for awhile now. Perhaps after the Hobbit...

As for a miniseries, I think the 8th Air Force would be PERFECT material. Follow one bomber group, one fighter group, and a few personalities within each. 

Now how can you as a red blooded American child of the Cold War era not like a John Wayne movie?

*GASP*  No, No, No, i never said that....  That would get my dog-tags separated for sure.. 

Now if we can get Hollywood to do a WWII (or Korea or Vietnam) air war movie along the lines of Private Ryan, Blakhawk Down, or We Were Soldiers... no un neccesary subplots just the main story. Or the HBO/Hanks/Spielberg team to do another 10 hour series for the air side...

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about...

Could you dig The Flying Tigers or The Hunters re-made with today's CGI (and a little scrip[t-tweaking)?  Man, if I only had the money to remake some of the classics..  Kinda like the idea, it's like I do with Monogram kits.. Remake the classics..

Now how can you as a red blooded American child of the Cold War era not like a John Wayne movie? Even if there was no Duke in it

and yes, Pretty Boy's 109 or 262 would be a cool fictitious build.

"Sir, them Fokkers were Messerchmitts"

Sort of like the bad guys' Fokker Tripe in Flyboys

or Casey Jones F-84F/MiG in The Hunters (another movie of this catagory).

No those guys aren't real, but they are fun movies to watch. And would make some cool models that the Hexperten cant pick apart too badly at club meetings or contests.

The DVD does have a bonus featurette of "Double Victory", interviews with the Real Tuskeegee Airmen. I have not watched that part yet. If there is a collectors edition DVD like the one I have for Battle of Britain, that is not the one I received. No commentary on this one either. I think they were being frugal on my gift No worries, I had just wanted to see it.

But yes it was definitly Lucas visual handiwork... How would Chewie and Han look in the cokpit of a B-17?

Now if we can get Hollywood to do a WWII (or Korea or Vietnam) air war movie along the lines of Private Ryan, Blakhawk Down, or We Were Soldiers... no un neccesary subplots just the main story. Or the HBO/Hanks/Spielberg team to do another 10 hour series for the air side...

Now which Tuskeegee plane to build for my collection? Col Davis' mount? Lee Archer's pony? Or the destroyer killer P-47....

Ain't gonna do a Red Tail, but I'm really considering doing "Prettyboy's" Yellow-nosed Bf109 and Me262... 

The script was more in line with old John Wayne aerial movies such as Flying Tigers or Flying Leathernecks or even In Harms Way, than in the current generation of "gritty" war movies.

Bingo! That's exactly what I was trying to say... It WAS a "John Wayne movie"...  With too many sub-plots..

I received the DVD...

Is their a bonus section, a the "behind the scenes" or "The Making Of..." kinda things? And a commentary option?

But Lucas's money showed in the scope, flash, and movie bling.

Yupper.. Just change the aircraft to Y-Wings with X-wing escorts, and attacking TIE fighters..

Hans von Hammer

 Plus, they never showed how tough the B-17 actually was, just that one pass from a BF109 resulted in a kill...

And when "Lightning" took a basket-full of 30mm from the Me262 in a head-to-head attack (shakes head, sadly).. He shoulda been vaporized in the cockpit...

Can't believe I'm saying this, but the TV movie Tuskeegee Airmen was better, story-wise..

 

I received the DVD for Fathers Day and watched it this past weekend finally. The eye candy was quite nice and the integration of CGI models to real aircraft (I think they used a few ) was very nicely done. But yes, HBO did a far better job at the historical story/script.  But Lucas's money showed in the scope, flash, and movie bling. The script was more in line with old John Wayne aerial movies such as Flying Tigers or Flying Leathernecks or even In Harms Way, than in the current generation of "gritty" war movies. But between the two they do give a good, if flawed overview of their story. Now which Tuskeegee plane to build for my collection? Col Davis' mount? Lee Archer's pony? Or the destroyer killer P-47....

It's funny, movies that I have low or no expectations for are often pleasantly suprising, while movies that I know the subject or story and eagerly anticipate are a letdown... ah well... Not a bad addition to the DVD library.

I'm with ya.. P-51s and B-17s were dropping like flies from single bursts of the 30mm, which ripped wings and engine off the bombers every time, but our "hero" was able to keep flying long enough to guive his monologue, then die in the cockpit while the camera followed him all the way down.. Heh.. Even the engine lept running.. (No, it wasn't wasn't wind-milling, there was still power from the Packard-Rolls, which shoulda been just so much junk out front..)

Pure WW2-era war-movie stuff..   Which is where I expect it, not in a movie made in the 21st century..

Hans von Hammer

And when "Lightning" took a basket-full of 30mm from the Me262 in a head-to-head attack (shakes head, sadly).. He shoulda been vaporized in the cockpit...

You know, I'd be willing to accept that it wasn't the 30mm shells hitting him, but shrapnel from everything forward of the cockpit being ripped to shreds.

BUT the P-51 stayed in the air for like five more minutes! WTF? I'm willing to suspend a lot of disbelief (hey - I dug the hell out of Battleship), but that was just stupid.

One interesting scene was where a bombers wing is blown apart and a engine pod and its propeller is flying around on its own kinda like a little helicopter.

That was a re-make of an actual B-17 shoot-down.. It's been shown on the Military Channel, History Channel, YouTube, and a couple times in the TV show, 12 O'clock High...

Always in slow-motion too.. 

Watched it myself last night.. Hated the story-line...  Loved the air-to-air eye-candy, but it was probably the worst war movie script I ever heard...  Plus, they never showed how tough the B-17 actually was, just that one pass from a BF109 resulted in a kill...

And when "Lightning" took a basket-full of 30mm from the Me262 in a head-to-head attack (shakes head, sadly).. He shoulda been vaporized in the cockpit...

Can't believe I'm saying this, but the TV movie Tuskeegee Airmen was better, story-wise..

What that story needed was a Band Of Brothers, or The Pacific type mini series. It would make a great show.

Just watched this movie on Blu-ray. I really liked the flight scences inside and outside the aircraft, There were several scenes where I paused the video just to look at the background items, like jeeps, trucks, barracks, etc. One interesting scene was where a bombers wing is blown apart and a engine pod and its propeller is flying around on its own kinda like a little helicopter.

The movie seemed to suggest that it was common for fighter pilots flying escort for the bombers to abandon them and go chasing after German fighter planes just to score points! Did this really happen?

If it did happen why weren't they court martialed? Seems to me that would be dereliction of duty. I can't an infantry or tank unit running off to fight their own little war instead of taking part in an assault on a target with the rest of their unit.

Another thing. How the heck did they avoid running into each other or shooting up their own planes?

I started skipping to the fighting parts and just watches those.

Heh.. That's what I do with Flyboys (and "Pearl-Necklace Harbor"), Memphis Belle, and the like....

I watch it for free on Project-free-TV, lots of movies and TV shows for free.

 I did not like the bad acting and weak story line, so I started skipping to the fighting parts and just watches those.

Gonna wait.. Somebody I know will buy it, then I can borrow it, lol..

Red Tails DVD & Blu-Ray will be released 22 May.

I had the honor and pleasure of knowing and conversing with Capt. Chs. McGee, one of the Tuskegee Airmen. Movies are movies, and Hollywood takes artistic license with the facts. I'll see the movie and take it for what it is, a movie and not a documentary. The unfortunate thing is the "media" and the incorrect information that is being pumped out as if it was gospel. The Units DID lose bombers and the units DID NOT fly 1500 missions. Maybe they flew 1500 sortees, but not 1500 missions. These units ARE legendary and DO NOT need the "press" to exagerate their feats.  Hollywood I can excuse and take it for what it is worth. So called journalist who do not get the facts straight, especially when the facts are a matter of public record, cannot be forgiven nor tolerated. :Perhaps their work should be published on yellow paper.