IIRC = If I recall correctly.

Thankee for the clarifications. That said, if you look around the web you will see a number of early war model Japanese planes showing either an IFF stripe on the leading edge or a white circle around the national markings or both. The Val I did was the "Midway" version so its decals had the white circle. I would have masked and painted my own anyway because I want to learn how to do it, but the pictures on the Japanese Aircraft website ( cited by coogrfan) showed a plain jane red. Powerful symbol though. And it did its job: many vets I interviewed a few years back remember the "meatball" when it showed up in person. No quibble about IJAAF planes wearing the IFF - I built a Ki-84 and a 72 scale Oscar and they both wear one.

Stik: I gotta ask. What does IIRC stand for?

Eric

EBergerud

Should also add that there are two errors: the early war zeros did not have a yellow/orange edge on the wing - that came when they switched to green. Also the national marking on early war planes normally lacked a white circle. This was one reason why I painted my own on the Val I just built - pics on post in "Aviation" made two days ago.

Eric

(1) It is my understanding that current research suggests that the first use of yellow leading edge IFF panels on IJN carrier aircraft dates to sometime between Aug and Oct 1942(i.e. after Eastern Solomons but before Santa Cruz).

http://japaneseaircraft.multiply.com/photos/album/88/SANTA_CRUZ_ISLANDS#

(2)

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/ryan/a6m2_and_a6m3_secondary_markings.htm

"A6M2s built by Nakajima can generally be distinguished by the addition of a white surround to the fuselage hinumaru. However, it should be noted that this feature was only introduced in the summer (July?) of 1942. Thus the first 148+ Nakajima built Zeros are rather less easily differentiated from those built by Mitsubishi."

Hans von Hammer

: the early war zeros did not have a yellow/orange edge on the wing - that came when they switched to green. Also the national marking on early war planes normally lacked a white circle.

Regarding the last, does it mention that the underside honimaru were without the white border, or is that a given, regardless of upper camouflage color scheme?

As for the yellow leading edges, I always understood that to be a distinction between IJN and IJA markings, as the leading edge-colors were IFF markings...

Yes the leading edge yellow/orange bands were indeed IFF markings. But IIRC, they were applied toboth IJAAF and IJNAF aircraft. Again, IIRC, the white borders were added to the Hinomaru on green IJNAF aircraft to increase their visability/contrast against the green background. But in forward areas this border was often overpainted to reducee the visability/contrast. Early War Green IJN aircraft did not have the white border, and the lower wing Hinomarus did not. A whiteband or square background for the Hinomaru was used for the same purposes on aircraft operating in the Japan islands after the Doolittle raid.

: the early war zeros did not have a yellow/orange edge on the wing - that came when they switched to green. Also the national marking on early war planes normally lacked a white circle.

Regarding the last, does it mention that the underside honimaru were without the white border, or is that a given, regardless of upper camouflage color scheme?

As for the yellow leading edges, I always understood that to be a distinction between IJN and IJA markings, as the leading edge-colors were IFF markings...

The CAF bought the Zekes, Kates, and Vals from the production company that did them for Tora Tora Tora... Several more aircraft were then built to their specs from BT-13s and T-6s.  The CAF has one of two flyable, authentic Zekes, the other belonging to the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino... The CAF's A6M2 Zeke is mostly authentic, except for the engine and certain avionics,  that is, since the Sakae engine is actually a P & W from a T-6, while Chino's A6M5 has an authentic Japanese-built Sakae, but was a Japanese-built copy of the P & W logo, right down to the words, "Dependability and Reliability" on the engine's serial number plaque..

Should add that you can see two videos the above reconstruction (the plane is only 5% original but built to actual Japanese plans from scratch - not a worked-over Texan like some replicas) are available. One that shows it in detail mostly on the ground is US YouTube : search A6M2-21 Zero at Air Expo 2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To5T3WI7pHg . The other is on Japanese YouTube and shows it in flight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjGXYxfGQiQ . A link to the second is available in the article on the plane in Aviation of Japan cited above.

Might add that the English commentary on the Japanese site was very favorable to the scheme - something like "they finally got it right." Should also add that there are two errors: the early war zeros did not have a yellow/orange edge on the wing - that came when they switched to green. Also the national marking on early war planes normally lacked a white circle. This was one reason why I painted my own on the Val I just built - pics on post in "Aviation" made two days ago.

Eric

There's a complete description on how this color was chosen at http://www.straggleresearch.com/2012_01_01_archive.html . Despite the name of the address, it's a very complex blog called Aviation of Japan. This appeared in the January 2012 rendition. (Scroll all the way to the bottom to see the article written by the guy who painted the plane.)

Accurate? All I can say is that Nick Milman gave it very high marks - he's the guy who wrote the pamphlet "Painting the Early Zero-Sen" that I used for my work. (Link available on the address above.) The booklet has paint chips galore and goes into the technicalities of color matching which may or may not be helpful for most but I found fascinating. We also must remember that the camera and computer monitors add layers of disinformation. And the Zero color has a "fugitive" green in it that comes from the interaction of neutral gray and ochre - the two main pigments used by the Japanese. In the real world that means yellow and black. You need to consult Milman for details but the color he thinks correct is pretty close to Munsell Y 6,2: that puts it as a kind of yellow. If you want a humbling experiment take this photo, or another of your choosing, and load it into a complex draw program and run the eye-dropper all over it and watch the RGB numbers go nuts. So we don't see a color but mentally try to make sense of thousands of slightly different color signals. And there is no color spectrum more guaranteed to drive you nuts than the grays. Most LW colors are really one form of gray or another and no two paint makers give you the same color. (The USN blues are really greys - I think based on some kind of chromatic black - and they drive you nuts. Ship expert Tracy White who consulted with Dragon over their recent Independence claims US ships at sea were given a big pot of white and a big pot of purple and depending upon the ratio out comes haze gray, deck blue, navy blue. Figure. If he's right that purple was one step from a chromatic black.)  And the one thing you can say for sure is that neutral gray is the principle pigment for the early war Zero (or Val). No wonder people have squabbled for twenty years.

Eric

That don't even look close...  Any background on it about how they came up with that color, Eric?

I use Testor's Model Master Camouflage Gray (FS 36622) for the Zeke's overall color, as well as any other IJN aircraft that're camouflaged in Gray...  No it's not an exact match, not even a close one, but it looks "right" when it's compared to the "Texas Zeros" I've seen on the flightline in the CAF Tora Squadron, and in CFS II... 

Texas Zeros from CAF Tora Squadron

             (Man, I wish the that "Texas Raiders" had a working chin-turret sometimes... Always wondered what I'd really see if the pilot looked over his shoulder and saw the turret tracking him, lol)

 CFS II A6M2:

I guess the main thing I judge by is the contrast between the camouflage color and the "meatballs"...  When it gets to the "green side" of the grey shade some folks are using it causes the meatball to "vibrate"...  Whether or not the color is "right" is irrelevant to me in the case of IJN birds, but more about what I think looks right, taking into account scale color and lighting, since they're always on dioramas or in shadow-boxes with controled lighting.... 

 Note the variations on color of the top Zekes vs the bottom one (as seen through the Fort's nose) as the angle of the sun changes...  With the sun lower in the eastern sky in the bottom photo, the color takes on a slightly darker look, while at mid-day, it's a "brighter" gray.. The CFS II screenshot is there becasue I painted that particular model "skin", same as I did the SBD's skin..

 As for if it's "worth building", well... I'd have to say that almost every kit I buy is worth building, with damned-few exceptions (The Aurora P-61 being one of those, Scratch-building an entire 1/48 P-61 would be faster than fixing what all's wrong with that one...).   For the level of detail and ease of assembly, as well as price, the Tamiya A6M2 is pretty hard to beat... It's a "shake & bake", true, but it's also a great kit for a beginner to build S.O.B., and intermediate and advanced modelers can easily to go to town on it with scratch-built details... 

 I think I paid like 16.00 for it last time I bought it at Hobby Lobby... Still need the Rufe and Hamp,  though (Anyone besides Tamiya even make those two in 1/48th?)... I've also got their recent A6M5, but that one isn't in the line-up yet, and haven't seen a copy of the Hamp anywhere off-line, although my LHS guy can get one for me whenever I ask him to...

Meanwhile, I've gotten the A6M5 from Monogram up on the bench, at about 65%, plus another to start, and four other injection-molded Jap fighters sitting there, all Otaki kits, Frank, Oscar, and Jack, and an Arii Tony...  Add the 1/48 Jill and Grace vac-forms, and one each a 1/32 scale Revell Zeke and Tony, I'm sitting pretty with "Aircraft of the Rising Sun"... I think that's more aircraft than the IJN and Army had after the Marianas Turkey Shoot...

Still looking for that ever-elusive 1/32 Revell Jack though... THAT aircraft has turned into my "Elenore"... Every time it pops up on Ebay, it starts at 22.00 or so, and before it's over, it's upwards of 130.00... 

But yeah.. The Tammy-zeke..It's worth it... Especially at the price they want for it... How can you go wrong with a Tamiya kit for 16-20.00?

I did the old 1/32 Zero about 7 or 8 years ago good kit go build it .             ACESES5           ON BENCH DRAGON 1/35 HUMMEL 165 EARLY                 

Very nice Val! I love the oil staining behind the cowl

In case anyone is still following this thread, I've finished the Val and it is in "Aircraft." One pic below:

Eric

I have build the 'old' J2M Raiden about a year ago,
and I have to say that it was one of the most fun and easy builds I've done so far.
So I think the Zero will be about the same!

Just build it, will be a whole lot a fun!

Regards Ninetalis.

EBergerud

Anyone know if the old Tamiya Jack has raised lines?

It does. Raised on the fuselage and a mix of raised and recessed on the wings. Also loses points for the one-piece canopy.

It is a 70's vintage kit though.

Done this kit as well, like every one else as noted it's simple and straightforward. It dresses up nicely, I had zero complaints for the money ($15 in 1/48).

Leo,

I was afraid of that. I bought the A6M5 and it was described as having "recessed" lines. The M2 was a gift. I don't unseal kits before a build and it really didn't dawn on me that the claim could be half true. Thanks to you tip I opened the M5 and you're right.  I've never rescribed great hunks of model before - just little stuff that got sanded away. Can always try it: am going to weather the daylights out one anyway for Kamikaze service. (Zeros were the most common "special attack" aircraft. The Japanese had so few decent pilots by late 44 that they were given the few second generation fighters that could actually get into the air.) But it does sound like I'll need a new M2.

Anyone know if the old Tamiya Jack has raised lines?

Eric

Eric,

The only thing for me was, the fuselage panel lines were raised and the wings were recessed. I just re scribed the fuselage. otherwise i really enjoyed the build.

Cheers Leo

Here's a pic of the most recently restored Zero: original except for the engine. (Done in Minot ND.) They did their best to match the original early war color.

Eric

read on. 

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=172153

Von- you know the mix he used on that M3?

It is a fun easy build.   Here is mine...it did have a bit of wing warp but nothing too bad.

Generalfeldmarschall,

That's a very sweet Zero. Definite heel click on that color: almost identical to what the UK gent has in mind, although maybe lacking a little green. It's nice seeing it on a model: color samples over a monitor leave much to be desired. Do you know what it is? I get something similar tinting Floquil Concrete. (Although the cowl appears too black - it's supposed to be a black/blue - but after working with subtle colors my brain begins to hurt.) I find XF76 too green: the Brit said it was too grey: figure. The thing that makes the color so beastly is the green. Logic says you get green by adding green. But you also get a color that apes green to the eye by combining yellow and black. (If you're out of olive drab and need something in the ball park, that will do it.) My source said the original paint came from neutral grey and ochre - a variation on the theme. Which adds a variation: if the green is "fugitive" it will vanish rapidly with fading or age. And because color research on the Zero is partially based on samples of real Zero wrecks, a new one might have looked a little more like XF76. (Tamiya released the paint to accompany its first 1/32 scale second generation Zeros about eight years back.) Or not. It's humbling to know that physicists continue to study the spectrum and debate continues over the whole idea of "primes." Want to see that in action, look at the various paint makers version of RML 02 - a color that almost certainly influenced the Japanese (along with RML 63).

Reasoned: I've got the same Val kit, except it's the "Midway" version. As the same ships and probably same planes & pilots participated at both Pearl Harbor and Midway, the only difference is the color scheme which calls for green for Midway. (It appears that Hiryu's Vals may have been painted green at Pearl Harbor.) I also have more Japanese planes. As the IJN used green/grey throughout most of the war, and the IJA employed green and natural metal (few browns in China I think) I'm not going to miss a chance to give the Val the grey/amber early war finish.

Eric

Correct color, IMO:

EBergerud

Reasoned: How'd you handle the great Zero color problem? I spent $10 on a self published article from a guy in the UK outlining all of the various twists in the question over the last 20 years. Great fun. I'm not bad at color mixing from primes, but this color is one of those that's really subtle: where's that green come from? or the amber? Might just be just the right combo of neutral grey and ochre but I've spent three solid days making samples and I'm nipping at the ankles but not there yet. What did you use? It looks spot on from the top, a little grey from the front, but that's what greys do. (BTW: I'm building a Val also right now. The researcher forwarded a color sample for the Val "amber grey": guess it's the same color as the Zero but a little darker.)

  

Good question, there's been lots of discussion as to whether it is grey, grey-green or carmelish colored.  Not real sure but I did a custom mix (because I knew I was also going to build a Pearl Harbor Val in the same color scheme) and mixed the MM IJN grey with a little tan and green to get the hue I liked. the first pic above is closer to the "real life" color.  Yeah, it's all just a SWAG in trying to get the "right" look, which is why i saved the original mix so i would have enough to do the Val.  Good luck, I'm looking forward to seeing your Val.  BTW, is it the Hasegawa PH version?  I'm working on the pit as I type!

Antoher memeber, Fermis, has build them side by side. I think both came out great:

/forums/p/139915/1476815.aspx#1476815

i got two in the stash. good kit none the less. best 1/48 A6M2 would be hasegawa though. M3 and M5 would be tamiya. 

Eric - I built this 3yrs ago and it was my first kit xince I had taken a 30 yr. hiatus from building. I personally think it's a sweet kit. yeah the detail may be lacking a bit and it required some filling and sanding but overall it builds up into a real nice Zero. In addition you can pick it up rather at low price. Got mine for $6.50 at Hobby Lobby with a 40% off coupon.

 As far as the Zero color debate goes it is certainly endless and mind-numbing to me. I went with Tamiya's XF-76 IJN Gray-Green. It looked acceptable to me. Here's a pic of my A6M2 for example.

                              Joe

Yes and no...just say, Hasegawa or go w/ the new Tamiya A6M5 or A6M3...

Thanks for the input. I don't lose sleep over detail inside the cockpit, but another Zero fan on Kit Network said the old Tamiya was very nicely shaped but that nobody has the cockpit right - including the new Tamiya. Never tried a vacuform: maybe that would be an idea. A good canopy is something I've still never really gotten, and the Zero has a lot of glass.

Actually I have run into kits that I didn't think were worth building. I admire modelers that find the challenge in bringing an antique kit to life. (Some guy over at Flory's site rescribed an old Wellington bomber kit and it looks great. Heaven knows how long that took.) I'm just not sure I'm one of them. Raised panel lines, bad fit, hopeless decals ... make ulcers.

Reasoned: How'd you handle the great Zero color problem? I spent $10 on a self published article from a guy in the UK outlining all of the various twists in the question over the last 20 years. Great fun. I'm not bad at color mixing from primes, but this color is one of those that's really subtle: where's that green come from? or the amber? Might just be just the right combo of neutral grey and ochre but I've spent three solid days making samples and I'm nipping at the ankles but not there yet. What did you use? It looks spot on from the top, a little grey from the front, but that's what greys do. (BTW: I'm building a Val also right now. The researcher forwarded a color sample for the Val "amber grey": guess it's the same color as the Zero but a little darker.)

I haven't much to compare it to but for the price I think it would be hard to beat.

My version........