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Invasion Stripe Width

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Northern California
Posted by jeaton01 on Wednesday, April 1, 2020 1:13 PM

Carlos, he would have been no better off in the copilot's seat, the copilot, 2nd Lt. John M. Butler, was killed.  In re-reading the pdf, Pratt's neck was judged to be broken by whiplash.  And yes, the jeep seat was not the best place to be, Pratt's aide, 1st Lt. John L. May, was sitting behind the jeep and escaped with a possible concussion.

John

To see build logs for my models:  http://goldeneramodel.com/mymodels/mymodels.html

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, April 1, 2020 12:44 PM

I recall reading in The Longest Day that at some point General Pratt was  seated next to the pilot interviewed for the book and that he was “tickled pink”. It mentions him watching the glider being damaged upon touchdown by obstacles on the LZ, and then the pilot being thrown out and General Pratt being crushed in the nose of the wreckage. But it’s been a good nine years or so since I last read it, so I could easily be mistaken and confusing some of this. Sitting in the jeep for landing would have been downright stupid on his part. 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Northern California
Posted by jeaton01 on Wednesday, April 1, 2020 12:27 PM

Carlos, general Pratt was sitting in the jeep and broke his neck when he hit the upper structure of the glider when it crashed into a tree.  A pdf with a lot of iformation about the event and the Fighting Falcon CG-4A qs it was named is here:

http://goldeneramodel.com/mymodels/cg4a/1cg4a/FLAGShip-FF2_Short.pdf

I have done a CG-4A in the markings of the one General Pratt was in, and also a Horsa.  It is best to work from photographs.  Here are links to my two builds, and pictures below.

 

On the Horsa my wing stripes are .436", the fuselage .356, which in  full scale is 31 and 25.6 inches respectively.  The wing stripes on the CG-4A are .4", 28 inches in full scale.

http://goldeneramodel.com/mymodels/cg4a/cg4a.html

 

http://goldeneramodel.com/mymodels/gliders/horsa/1horsa/1horsa.html

 

http://www.yolo.net/%7Ejeaton/mymodels/cg4a/1cg4a/0241cg4a.jpg

 

http://goldeneramodel.com/mymodels/gliders/horsa/1horsa/0221horsa.jpg

 

John

To see build logs for my models:  http://goldeneramodel.com/mymodels/mymodels.html

 

GAF
  • Member since
    June 2012
  • From: Anniston, AL
Posted by GAF on Wednesday, April 1, 2020 11:47 AM

Simone,

I built a WACO CG-4A a few years ago and never found any specifications for the stripe width required on gliders, except for the posted requirement on the wings of being 6 inches from the national insignia.  I went with photos to determine placement and approximate size.

If you are sincerely curious, you might try contacting the Atterbury-Bakalar Air Museum in Columbus, Indiana.

https://www.atterburybakalarairmuseum.org/

Also, the Silent Wings Museum is happy to answer questions and answered a couple of mine when I was building the WACO.

https://ci.lubbock.tx.us/departments/silent-wings-museum

Note that since the museums are both closed down due to the Corona virus, contacting them might be slow.  The Silent Wings Museum states they are still open for questions and the contact information is on their front page!

Hope this is of some help.

Gary

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, April 1, 2020 11:47 AM

Thank you for the information. 

Follow up to that. The pilot was the Senior Glider Pilot of IX Troop Carrier Command, Lt. Col. Mike Murphy. He survived the crash but was severely injured. 

Following the story of Don Pratt, which I didn't know much about; there's a pretty good string of related info.

Thanks again.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, April 1, 2020 11:35 AM

GMorrison

As assault carriers... quite a few became post war agricultural sheds in Normandy.

 

 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, April 1, 2020 11:26 AM

GMorrison

The US one looks to have narrow stripes on the wing?

Related question, Carlos.

Were gliders ever "reused"?

As assault carriers... quite a few became post war agricultural sheds in Normandy.

 

The theory was that yes, they could be re used. A system was devised where a C-47 with a hook could swoop in snag a cross stretched tow rope, and tow the glider aloft again and back home. I think that was shown in the Errol Flynn film Objective Burma at the end. The prevelant idea for Normandy planning was that after the front lines had moved forward and the LZs were secured, aviation personnel would recover, disassemble, and prep for shipment back to England any recoverable gliders. The reality was that it was such a small percentage of the gliders involved.

Glider pilots, being in short supply, were supposed to meet up at rally points after landing on the LZs, and proceed to the beaches for transport back to England so that they could fly subsequent lift serials. There were supposed to be two rated pilots in each glider for the invasion. The glider pilot shortage dictated otherwise, with one pilot per glider per lift on many gliders and often another soldier was in the right hand seat. That’s where General Pratt, asssitant division commander of the 101st Airborne was seated and subsequently killed on landing in Normandy.

Of course I’m talking in regards to the US Army Airborne in Normandy, and not the British Airborne. I am not as well read on that aspect of their history.  I do know that their glider pilots were assigned to a specific regiment, the Glider Pilot Regiment.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, April 1, 2020 10:57 AM

The US one looks to have narrow stripes on the wing?

Related question, Carlos.

Were gliders ever "reused"?

As assault carriers... quite a few became post war agricultural sheds in Normandy.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, April 1, 2020 10:42 AM

Looks like there might have been both sizes used on Horsa gliders

 

18”?

 

 

 24” ?

 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    April 2020
  • From: ITALY
Posted by Sirsimons on Wednesday, April 1, 2020 10:21 AM

antoni

Another example is to be found in the 11 Group and IX Fighter Command Joint Air Plan and Executive Orders for 'Operation Neptune' which was issued at Uxbridge on 25th May 1944.

Special and Distinctive markings for Aircraft

……………

 

61. In 0rder to facilitate the identification of friendly aircraft by Ground, Assault and Naval forces and other friendly aircraft, certain types 0f American and British aircraft during 'Operation Neptune' as enumerated below, are to be painted with special and distinctive markings.

62. Types of British and American aircraft which are to carry the special and distinctive markings

i) Fighters and fighter Bombers

ii) Tactical and Photographic Reconnaissance aircraft

iii) Aircraft employed in spotting for naval gunfire and field artillery

iv) Light and medium Bombers

v) Troop carrier aircraft including four-engine types

vi) Glider tugs including four engine types

vii) Gliders

viii) Liaison aircraft and Air Observati0n aircraft employed in forward areas for fire spotting

[...] 

64. Details of the special and distinctive markings to be painted on the types of aircraft enumerated at para 62 above have already been distributed to all concerned under separate cover.

[...]

Note that when this document is compared to the original SHAEF Operational Memorandum No 23 that Gliders have now been added to the list of aircraft types which are to carry the distinctive markings.

 

Hello Antoni, hello everybody,

I'm in latest stage of building on a Italeri 1/72 RAF Horsa glider and I was struggling to find on Internet a clear indication abou the Invasion stripes on this model. Everywhere is indicated the distinction between single engine and double engine stripe dimensions, but no details over the Horsa gliders.

Here I've finally found something but it's not clear to me where to find the details mentioned at the point 64 of this  Executive Orders for 'Operation Neptune' which was issued at Uxbridge on 25th May 1944.

Were the Gliders assimilated to the twin engine planes? Therefore with 24 inches wide stripes?

Cheers,
Simone

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: San Antonio
Posted by paintsniffer on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 11:11 AM

I wouldn't sweat perfection too much. Invasion stripes were painted on in a hurry by crews. Also, neatness really isn't a huge factor, in many if not all cases the real things were slapped on with paint brushes.

Excuse me.. Is that an Uzi?

  • Member since
    October 2005
  • From: UK
Posted by antoni on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:00 AM

The white identity bands on the wings of Mustangs were simply incorporated into the invasion markings.

Typhoons carried exactly the same invasion markings as required in Memo 23.

By the beginning of 1944 2nd TAF's Typhoons were operating regularly over occupied Europe, often at low-level, and it was felt that the under wing stripes were compromising the camouflage.The Typhoon had by then become a recognised shape in Allied skies and the threat from German coastal raiders, with which it had been confused, had diminished. Orders were sent out in early in February 1944 to remove the stripes from all Typhoons and their replacement with Day Fighter Scheme under surface colour Medium Sea Grey and stated that the change must be completed by first light on 7th February 1944. From then until D-Day thay carried no special recognition markings.

 

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: New Zealand
Posted by Scorpiomikey on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 1:19 AM

Just make sure they're invasion stripes and not ID stripes. P-51 should be fine (ID stripes were usually just a white stripe) but things like the Typhoon had black and white ID stripes under the wings. If i remember correctly (please correct me if im wrong its been a while) it was 3 white stripes at 18" and 2 Black stripes at 12"

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Posted by Neptune48 on Monday, July 16, 2012 10:58 PM

"You can't have everything--where would you put it?"
  • Member since
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  • From: Panhandle Fl
Posted by Noah T on Monday, July 16, 2012 9:22 PM

Fantastic replies guys, with the Tamiya tape being 6mm and my skill level, I dont think the .635mm or so I'll be off will be that big of a deal.

Ive got the bug to make a 72nd P47 razorback from the 5th air sea rescue now as well.

Any links to good USAAF fonts? I'm froggy enough to try to make stencils, but at this scale may actually buy the paper to print my own decals...

 

On the bench: 72nd scale P51D, P47D Razorback

---Everything Is What It Is, And Not Another Thing.---

  • Member since
    October 2005
  • From: UK
Posted by antoni on Monday, July 16, 2012 9:19 AM

Outboard of the engine nacelles is what the intructions stated, and no mention of rudders or serial numbers.

 

The distinctive markings which were to be applied for Operation Neptune were laid down in SHAEF Operational Memorandum No 23, 'Distinctive Marking - Aircraft', which was issued on 18th April 1944.. The stated object of this memorandum was to describe the distinctive markings which were to be applied to American and British aircraft in order to make them more easily identifiable as being 'friendly' by Allied ground, sea and air forces.

The instructions contained in SHAEF Operational Memorandum No 23, were to apply to the following types of British and American aircraft:

1 ) Fighters and Fighter-Bombers

2) Tactical and Photographic Reconnaissance aircraft

3) Aircraft employed in spotting f0r Naval and Field Artillery

4) Light Bombers

5) Medium Bombers

6) Troop carrier aircraft, including four engine types

7) Glider Tugs, including four engine types

8) Liaison aircraft and Air Observation Platforms employed in forward areas for fire spotting and adjustment or for advanced aircraft control

9) Coastal Command, Air Sea Rescue and disembarked Fleet Air Arm aircraft except for seaplanes and four engine aircraft which need not be marked.

 

The instructions would not however apply to the following types of aircraft:

1) Four-engine bombers

2) Air transports

3) Gliders

4) Night Fighters

5) Seaplanes.

The instructions given in the memo were to become effective on the day of the assault and thereafter until such time as it was deemed advisable to change, Aircraft were to be given their distinctive markings as shortly before-e the day of the assault as was possible in order to protect the effectiveness of their use.

The instructions to apply the distinctive markings \\:ere not intended to change the national markings then in use by either British aircraft in the form of Red, White, Blue and Yellow roundels or American aircraft in the form of the blue and white 'star and bar’ in any way.

Distinctive Markings - single-engine aircraft

Upper and under surfaces of wings: Single-engine aircraft were to carry distinctive markings on the upper and under surfaces of the wings in the form of five black and white stripes each 18 inches wide. The stripes were to be parallel to the longitudinal axis of the aircraft and were to be arranged in order from the centre of the aircraft outwards thus: white, black, white, black, white. These stripes were to end six inches inboard of the national markings.

Fuselage: The fuselage was to be painted with five parallel black and white stripes, again, each being 18 inches wide, which were to run completely around the fuselage. The outside edge of the rearmost white band was to be 18 inches from the leading edge of the tailplane.

Distinctive Markings – twin-engine aircraft

Upper and under surfaces of wings; Twin-engine aircraft were to carry their five black and white stripes on the upper and under surfaces of the wings from the engine nacelles outwards. Arranged in the same white, black, white, black, white order as given for single-engine aircraft. On twin-engine aircraft, the stripes were each to be 24 inches wide.

Fuselage: Again as with single-engine aircraft, twin-engine aircraft were to be painted with five parallel black and white stripes which were to run completely around the fuselage. Each of these stripes was to be 24 inches wide with the outside edge of the rearmost white band being 18 inches from the leading edge of the tailplane.

Distinctive markings - Four-engine troop carrier aircraft and Glider Tugs

These aircraft were to be marked identically to twin-engine aircraft with the wing stripes being located outboard of the outer engine nacelles. The black and white stripes were in no case to be applied over the national markings which took precedence. The stripes on the wings were to stretch from the leading to trailing edges unless the aircraft was fitted with special equipment such as de-icer boots which were not to be painted over.

The Distinctive markings were illustrated in an Appendix which showed them applied to a single-engine aircraft which looked like a Spitfire and a twin-engine aircraft which looked like a Mosquito. This memo was widely distributed throughout the Allied forces where it found its way into various kinds of orders. One example of this is to be found in the Naval Orders prepared for 'Operation Neptune'  where paragraph 16 of ON 11 dated 1st May 1944, states that ”A high standard of aircraft recognition is expected from all Naval .forces taking part in this operation. Details of 'Distinctive Markings for Allied aircraft will be .found in ON 11 appendix V". Appendix V of ON 11 was essentially identical to SHAEF Operational Memorandum No 23 right clown to the diagrams showing how the markings were to be applied.

Another example is to be found in the 11 Group and IX Fighter Command Joint Air Plan and Executive Orders for 'Operation Neptune' which was issued at Uxbridge on 25th May 1944.

Special and Distinctive markings for Aircraft

……………

 

61. In 0rder to facilitate the identification of friendly aircraft by Ground, Assault and Naval forces and other friendly aircraft, certain types 0f American and British aircraft during 'Operation Neptune' as enumerated below, are to be painted with special and distinctive markings.

62. Types of British and American aircraft which are to carry the special and distinctive markings

i) Fighters and fighter Bombers

ii) Tactical and Photographic Reconnaissance aircraft

iii) Aircraft employed in spotting for naval gunfire and field artillery

iv) Light and medium Bombers

v) Troop carrier aircraft including four-engine types

vi) Glider tugs including four engine types

vii) Gliders

viii) Liaison aircraft and Air Observati0n aircraft employed in forward areas for fire spotting

and adjustment, or for advanced aircraft control

ix) Coastal Command aircraft, Air Sea Rescue and disembarked Fleet Air Arm aircraft except seaplanes and four-engined aircraft which need not be marked

63. Types 0f British and American aircraft which are not required to carry the special and distinctive markings

 

i) Four-engined bombers

ii) Air Transports

iii) Night Fighters

iv) Seaplanes

 

64. Details of the special and distinctive markings to be painted on the types of aircraft enumerated at para 62 above have already been distributed to all concerned under separate cover.

65. The date and time when these special and distinctive markings are to be painted on the appropriate types of aircraft will be communicated at a later date. They are not, repeat not, to be painted on aircraft prior to the receipt of the executive order for this action to be taken.

Note that when this document is compared to the original SHAEF Operational Memorandum No 23 that Gliders have now been added to the list of aircraft types which are to carry the distinctive markings.

Much the same information was passed to units operating in the Middle East by HQ Mediterranean Allied Air Forces Office of the Director of Operations Operation Memorandum 43. Dated 26th May 1944, this memo stated that aircraft with these distinctive markings might be seen in the Mediterranean Theatre, and any, aircraft from the Mediterranean which entered the area of operations was to be so marked.

The materials with which the distinctive markings were to be applied were detailed in 11 Groups Administrative Instructions for' Operation Overlord which were issued on 27th May 1944. Appendix 'C' of this document dealt with Equipment whilst Paragraph 8 of appendix 'C' was entitled 'Distemper' and stated the following, 'All servicing echelons and Wing Headquarters of 2 TAF and No 85 Group should hold siteen distemper brushes per Day Squadron served. Air Sea Rescue Squadrons should hold one brush per IE aircraft. Equipment sections of Stations and 2 TAF and No 85 Group Wings should hold distemper ready for immediate issue on the basis of 'two and a half gallons of Night Distemper and three and a half gallons of White Distemper for each Day Fighter type aircraft and three and a half gallons of Night Distemper and five gallons of White Distemper for each Walrus or 'Warwick Air Sea Rescue aircraft.

Note: A proportion of te issue will be an oil based distemper which will require a longer period to dry but must nevertheless be used wherever practicable. Issue of the necessary distemper for all units is being arranged".

The Material Specification for water-based Matt Finish Distemper, DTD 441, was issued in August 1940. The material was to consist of a smooth distemper suitable for application to doped fabric or painted metal surfaces by brush or spray, or it could be supplied in the form of a paste or powder which, when mixed with water in amounts to be  stated by the supplier, would produce a distemper. One coat of the distemper when applied to fabric or metal surfaces was to match the standard in colour, finish and opacity and be 'hard' dry in an hour.

After being allowed to dry at room temperature for two weeks, the distemper was to be capable of being removed by the application of hot water leaving the original painted or doped surface undamaged.

The mention made above of an oil-based distemper may go some way towards accounting for the difficulty which many units experienced in removing the distinctive markings when instructed to do so in July 1944. So far a material specification for an oil-based distemper of some kind is not known. One further explanation of the difficulty experienced in removing the markings may be that if insufficient supplies of distemper were available. paint such as that to DTD 314 for permanent synthetic finishes might have been used instead.

The Executive Order to apply the distinctive markings to the aircraft is thought to have been passed to the squadrons in 2 TAF by ASIO No 19 on 3rd June 1944, which directed that the distinctive markings be applied to the aircraft after the last sortie of the day. Comparatively few squadrons found the order to apply the black and white markings worth recording.

Those squadrons which do mention the application of the markings confirm 3rd June 1944 as the date of application, although work on some squadrons seems to have been carried over into the evening of D-Day itself. 

 

The application of the distinctive markings to No 488 Squadron’s Mosquitoes is interesting since it predates the instruction to apply the markings to Night Fighters by 24 hours. Whether this was because of imperfectly understood orders or that 488 Sqn was usually employed in the Intruder role and was therefore considered to be a 'Fighter/Bomber' rather than 'Night Fighter'' squadron is unclear.

 

As is usual with markings applied by the squadrons themselves, as opposed to on the production line, there was some variation in the location and size of the markings. The ORB entry for No 313 Squadron states "In the evening the aircraft were marked with 15 inch (sic) black and white stripes on the wings and fuselage”.  That the stripes applied to their aircraft were actually 15 inch rather than the 18 inch laid down is not known, but it suggests that there might have been some variations in size. Photographs provide ample evidence of variations in the location of the markings. For example, Mustangs from the Polish squadrons typically have the last White band on the fuselage painted over the Sky band, perhaps so thet the aircraft’s individual letter would lie on a black stripe and so be more visible.

One unusual anomaly is the practice by some Fleet Air Arm and Coastal Command units of applying a thin black line to the borders of the outermost white stripes which are visible on photographs of some Swordfish and Avengers. How widespread this practice was, and whether it had official blessing is currently unknown. Its purpose would appear to be to better delineate the distinctive markings on aircraft which were largely finished in White for their anti-submarine role.

Codes and serials

The application of the distinctive markings had some side effects on the other markings, usually the squadron codes and serial numbers carried by the aircraft concerned. Whilst SHAEF Operational Memorandum No 23 specifically stated that national markings must not be obscured, no mention was made of the codes and serials. Different units dealt with this problem in different ways. For example, Coastal Command's Strike squadrons, equippe with Beaufighter: and Mosquitoes moved their codes to the top of the fuselage in front of the national markings and grouped them together with the two-letter Squadron code separated from the individual aircraft letter by a hyphen, Serial numbers were often rearranged especially on Mosquitoes with the two letters being placed above the three numbers which remained in the usual place on the rear fuselage,

Some units painted around the serial number, some units painted over the serial number and others reapplied the painted-out serial numbers in smaller characters, of between 2 and 4 inches high, on the fin above the flash.

Night Fighters

The concession that Night fighters were to be exempt from carrying the distinctive markings was revoked on 7th June by' message A-104 from HQ AEAE, to all concerned.The message stated that with effect from 8th June 1944, all AEAF Night Fighter and Intruder aircraft operating over or near the shipping lanes or assault area including the hours of daylight were to carry the distinctive markings laid down in SHAEF Operational Memorandum No 23. It is thought that these instructions were authorised by SHAEF in Amendment No. 1 to Operational Memorandum No 23.

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: UK
Posted by Jon_a_its on Saturday, July 14, 2012 3:42 PM

SFAIR (remember)

18" for  fighters, 24" for bombers, w-b-w-b-w

There were proscribed positioning, eg specific distances from rudders & engines etc., & were not to obscure national markings or serial no's,  so check refs,

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  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Panhandle Fl
Invasion Stripe Width
Posted by Noah T on Saturday, July 14, 2012 2:56 PM

Hey guys the Tamiya masking tape wouldnt be near correct for D-day stripes (1/72) or would it? What would be the right width per stripe? I've got a slew of USAAF that I've been meaning to get to...

First would be a P51 b/c kit that I want to put the Malcom Hood on. Going for OD on wing tops and spine and nmf for the rest. But the stripes would be right for it as well.

It's been a bit since my last post but I finished the Floatfire, and a 262, almost done with the Blenheim. I'll get the pics up when I can.

 

On the bench: 72nd scale P51D, P47D Razorback

---Everything Is What It Is, And Not Another Thing.---

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