P-38 Question????

I can only assume that as the P38 was a superb fighter aircraft already, there was no need to modify the design in that way. in addition, I suspect that most Merlin production in the US was needed for the P51, which unlike the P38, DID need a replacement for the Alison

Partly due to the fact that it did not exactly fit the nacelles, and partly because of politics/rivalries between contractors.

Hey Guy's,
also the Allison's where turbo-supercharged ( they had the 2 stage supercharger on the accessory drives and then the turbo's) compaired to the Merlins supercharged (2 stage superchagrer on assy drive) and the Allisons with this set up made more BHP then the Merlins (the V-1710 to the V-1600 and more Cubic Inches too) and the Allison's where already in production, and Packard hadn't received the contract yet to produce the Merlin's, but on the Chain Lightnings they had a dual bank Allisons W-3420's that produced about 2.75 times the power then the normal V-12's

I'd heard that the Brits were ticked off that the Americans wouldn't provide them with evaluation samples of the P-38 that included the superchargers (something about the superchargers being classified) and that the evaluation Lightings had pretty lacklustre performance because of it.

Consequently, the Brits were very particular about how the Americans could apply the Merlins to their aircraft once Packard started making them.

Don't know if its true or not, but thats one story Iv'e heard.

The British ordered their Lightnings that way. Basically the British and the French at the time placed their order with Lockheed and opted out of the turbos and ordered them with both props turning right handed. The French also specified they use French radios, instruments and that the throttles be "in the French fasion" (ie. pull back = more power, push forward = less power). They were called "Castrated P-38" by Lockheed and by the time they were to be delivered France had already fell and the British only took 3 for testing. They werent satisfied and didnt take the order. The rest were taken over by the US, renamed P-322's. A few were used for guard duty after Pearl Harbor and most were given handed props but no turbos and used as trainers. If the British really wanted to look at our turbos they could always check out all the B-24's B-17's and P-47's around.


The Allison only had a single stage single speed supercharger while the Merlin had a two speed two stage supercharger. The Allison also made its power at a lower rpm and the turbocharged versions in the P-38 could deliver their rated power to a higher altitude than even the two speed, two stage Merlin! Ive also read that the Allison was just a bit tougher than the Merlin.

Hey Dave;
the V-1710's I've work with in A & P school they where out of an P-38 ( nobody knows which version) that had crashed up in the Colorado Rockies back in the 40's and the school had bought the engines for training purposes only, and they had the 2 stage superchargers + the turbos, it made pretty long display but they where cut aways made it nice to see how it worked

That is totally wierd! Im not discrediting you one bit but the last major P-38 version was the L and it had V-1720-111/113 engines. The first major production (aside from one offs and experimental stuff) V-1720 with a two stage supercharger was the V-1720-119. The 119s were used mainly in the P-82 Twin Mustang and the XP-51J, but neither of these were equipped with a turbocharger.... I am almost certain that when I went to see Glacier Girl that there was only a single stage on the engine driven supercharger.

All this has really got me to wondering and I ended up emailing the project manager for Glacier Girl so hopefully he'll get back to me shortly.

Anyway during all this I did some searching and found that a few websites give the "classified turbos" story that upnorth was talking about. All that I had ever read about it said that the British and French simply ordered them that way. I still tend to believe that they ordered them that way though because we gave them plenty of turboed aircraft through lend lease. In fact the British were using Fortress I's (B-17Cs which had turbos) against Germany in July of 41 when they didnt even get the first Lightning I until March of 42.

Knowing the military mind here, they would definitely have ordered them without the turbos for some totally daft reason. It seems to be an ongoing trait in British equipment buying that they can never buy a good design "off the shelf". They always have to mess around with it!!!! Nothing's changed since!!!

QUOTE: [i] If the British really wanted to look at our turbos they could always check out all the B-24's B-17's and P-47's around.

at the time i don't think there were any b-24s, b-17s or p-47s to look at for "us brits"...you guys didn't show up for another couple of years. not that we're not grateful, it's just that your post makes it sound like the skies over south east england were jam-packed full of p-47s etc from day one of the war....err, they weren't!
regards,
nick

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChrisJH666 Knowing the military mind here, they would definitely have ordered them without the turbos for some totally daft reason. It seems to be an ongoing trait in British equipment buying that they can never buy a good design "off the shelf". They always have to mess around with it!!!! Nothing's changed since!!!

yeah, mess around with it like say, the sherman...heard of a thing called the firefly anyone??
regards,
nick

That post does make it sound like England was covered with them.. sorry about that. My point is though that there were B-17's and B-24's being flown by the British a while before the US ever got involved. The RAF got 20 Fortress I's (B-17C) which started to arrive in England in March of 1941. Their first action was on July 8, 1941 when the RAF bombed Wilhelmshaven. That was quite a while before the RAF even got their first Lightning I.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_7.html

"Both the British and French delegations insisted that the Lockheed fighters be equipped with Allison engines without turbosuperchargers and with strictly right-handed rotation. This was because they wanted the engines to be interchangeable with those of the Curtiss H.81A Tomahawk which had been ordered by both Britain and France in great numbers. "

i understand your point by the way DaveB.inVa; it would seem behind the scenes politics was as much to with it as anything else.
just out of interest a couple of years back i went to a friend's wedding in east anglia which was held at an old RAF/USAAF base where p-38s were based; the wedding was held in a huge mess hall which was still adorned with pics of all the old pilots, along the their MIA?KIA status; it was very moving.
regards,
nick

I love the quote "Brits messing about with designs"
Wasn’t it the British that wanted the Mustang the way it was, and with the Merlin engine

it takes months to order a aircraft and then deliver it, and at the time of ordering the
P 38 the turbos were secret

heres a quote from a site
"the Unites States Army did not want to use their limited quantity of turbochargers for export. Basically, the British would be receiving "castrated" P-38s"

heres the web link http://p-38online.com/models.html

you tell 'em caveman!!

talking of the p-51, so what engine did it originally "come with"? am i right in saying it was US built in an answer to british specification requirements? not a big expert on the mustang, even though i love the plane...
regards,
nick

the Mustang first had an Allison engines, they were good for low level but not at high level, then some Brits messed about with the design and put a Merlin engine in it

heres a good site on the mustang http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/p51.shtml

cheers caveman...looks a great site
n

For those who might have thought my comment regarding British equipment being messed around with signified I perhaps come from somewhere like say.....the US for example, I'm a Brit who spent 13 years in the RAF, and the powers that be are STILL screwing up the equipment today!!!

My understanding is the the British went to North American to see if they would build the Curtiss P-40 under contract because Curtiss didn't have the ability to build as many as the British wanted to order.
North American countered that they could design a fighter using the same engine as the P-40 (the V-1710) and it would be a better overall aircraft. The British said fine as long as you can deliver a prototype in 90 days after the signing of the contract (which is the date they wanted the first P-40 from North American). The airframe was ready but the engine hadn't been delivered at the end of the 90 days but the British excepted it anyway.

Two amazing things (to me at least) is (1) Up until that time the only military aircraft that North American had produced were the BT-9/Yale and the T-6 Texan and (2) The USAAF didn't realize what they had in the P-51 until several months after they had their initial prototype.(Understand that it got added to the British contract as an after thought and since it wasn't to a US contract, nobody paid much attention to it until it was selected to be used to test a piece of equipment and the pilots who were flying got to praising it)

The Army Air Force put tons of money that was hard to come by during the Depression developing the Allison. And their reputation was on the line with it. It took something like 10 years to work out all the bugs and make it successful. They wanted it in every thing that used an in-line engine.

Capt. Caveman...are you familiar with Silverstone? I understand that it was, during WWII, an air force base. I spent two days there in '99 viewing some great old Bentleys. Wasnt the base purchased by the British Race Car Drivers Assn? I had a friend who was in that group...Robert Staple, who won the British driving championship back inthe 50s. He was known as "Sideways Staples'

If everyone has a chance, and you can get your hands on a copy, read Martin Caidin's book, P-38: The Fork Tailed Devil. Tons of stuff in this book relating to development, testing, combat and pilot interviews.

The RAF ordered the P-38 with the Allison engines. They wanted to get the turbochargers but the US Gov't wouldn't allow it. They needed the equipment for themselves. Consequently, the RAF received a few P-38's with non-turbocharged engines and non-handed propellers. They were dismayed by the performance. They cancelled the contract. But they did give the aircraft the name "Lightning". It stuck.

qmeister...you're correct in your statements about the Mustang. The British Purchasing Commission wanted North American to build the P-40 under licence. Edgar Schmeud and James "Dutch" Kindelberger argued they could produce a better fighter than the P-40. The B.P.C. allowed North American the opportunity to design a new aircraft with the stipulation that "The NA-73 prototype was to be ready in the time it would have taken to North American to tool up for P-40 production, namely 120 days and the cost per aircraft was not to exceed $50,000." - Great American Aricraft of WWII - Bison Books

The airframe was completed in 117 - due to alot of copycatting of systems etc, from the AT-6 to the Mustang - days but the marriage to the Allison engine didn't take place until October 1940. Testing was done by the RAF with the Allison engine and the aircraft wouldn't outperform the Bf-109 at altitude. In early 1942, one of the RAF test pilots had the idea to marry the Merlin to the Mustang airframe. They did so, resulting in the P-51B, and the rest is history.

I got a reply back today from Bob Cardin, hes the project manager for Glacier Girl. Here's his reply. "the Allison has a single stage engine driven supercharger. Only the P-38 has a turbo to go along with it." So at least Glacier Girl only has a single stage supercharger.

Im still going to say that if the RAF wanted turbos they coulda got them. Heres a link to the Baugher website. This is the best website I have ever found dealing with aircraft variants and their origins. The author has many references and is very well researched and accurate.

Heres the link to the Lightning I section http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p38_7.html

"Both the British and French delegations insisted that the Lockheed fighters be equipped with Allison engines without turbosuperchargers and with strictly right-handed rotation. This was because they wanted the engines to be interchangeable with those of the Curtiss H.81A Tomahawk which had been ordered by both Britain and France in great numbers. In addition, the Committee wanted to optimize the aircraft for medium-altitude combat as was currently the dominant mode of aerial warfare in Europe, rather than the high-altitude role for which the P-38 had originally been designed. The Anglo-French delegation was also aware of the problems currently being experienced by the War Department in the delivery of turbosuperchargers, and did not want to run the risk of costly, time-consuming delays since they wanted all the planes delivered in less than a year. It turned out that this decision was particularly unfortunate. "