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More tech than build question

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  • Member since
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More tech than build question
Posted by Bocks Suv on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 1:40 PM
I've always wondered if wing mounted guns aimed to hit a specific small spot or if the bullet pattern remained wide? If the ammo did converge, how far away would the spot be and could the pilot/gunner change it? Part 2 : In WW2 were fighter-launched missiles able to find their targets or did the pilot have to have really good aim AND know how to account for gravity, wind, and moving targets? When did homing and directed missiles first make the scene?
  • Member since
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  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 2:44 PM

To part 1, I believe guns were set to converge at a set point. It would have had to be altered by the ground crew and I would guess each air force would have different ranges.

In regards to part 2, I am certain that pilots were trained to account for moving targets and such, just as they were when using guns. The first guided weapons were the German Fritz X and the Hs 293, both were radio controlled from the launch aircraft and used against shipping. The Germans were developing a wire guided AA missile, the X-4, but while it was tested, it didn't see service.

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Posted by richs26 on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 3:31 PM

Here is a photo of the armorers testfiring a BF-109's guns at a certain distance.  All fighters had their guns sighted in just like a rifle so the pilots would know where to aim to achieve their shots.

http://www.asisbiz.com/Battles/North-Africa/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109F-North-Africa-1941-42-01.html

And yes, that is actually an E model.

 

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  • From: St louis
Posted by Raualduke on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 4:31 PM

There's actually a scene in the movie pearl harbor  where they are adjusting the guns

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  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 5:38 PM

Like Bish said, wing mounted guns converged at a certain distance, unlike nose guns that concentrated the firepower throughout the trajectory.

As far as missiles go, I think it was more like Kentucky Windage since no guidance systems were around yet except for the German ones that Bish described.

Comes to mind when the Italians  decided to surrender the Battleship Roma and several other warships to the British at Malta. Upon learning this, the Luftwaffe attacked them by sending Do 217's armed with Fritz X radio controlled bombs, sinking the Roma and damaging several others..

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Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 6:10 PM

The US also fielded some guided glide bombs in WWIi in small numbers. The AZON and later RAZON  were radio control guidance kits with a marker flare in the tail for tracking purposes. They attached to standard demolition bombs like modern Paveway or HOBOs do, and were fielded by the USAAF in WWII and USAF in Korea. The USN had a similar set up but with wings to extend the glide range. At the end of the war they were even fielding  the BATBomb which had a radar seeker head in the nose.

AFIK, the first guided air to air missile used in combat was the AIM-9 Sidewinder, a heat seeking AAM that was first used in combat by Nationalist Chinese F-86s to down Communist Chinese Mig-17s in 1956 or 1957.

 

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Posted by Bish on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 6:20 PM

Stik, I didn't know the US has guided air to surface weapons, they sound very similar to the Germans ones.

You may well be right about the Sidewinder, the Germans did use AA missiles, such as the R4M on the Me 262, but these were not guided weapons.

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Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 6:45 PM

Yes the Germans used unguided rockets such as the R4M and 21cm mortars underwing on certain bomber destroyer units. But IIRC, some French Nieuports were carrying rockets in WWII. I don't know if those were air to air for use against observation balloons & Zeppelins, or if they were for air to ground use.

I am pretty sure that some other guided air to air missiles such as the AIM-4 Falcon, and AA-1 Alkalai were fielded before the Sidewinder, but I am 99% certain that it was the first to see combat and score a kill in battle.

As far as the similarities between the US and German guided bombs, they both operated along the same principle- radio command using visual tracking of the tail flare. And the BAT was in a league of its own, an anti shipping weapon with a radar seeker head for terminal guidance. I have also read of TV or Electro Optical guidance being developed, but the technology for that had not matured for fielding yet. The shape of things to come.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

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  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 7:03 PM

Have never read or heard of these two until stik mentioned them. One was never used in combat and the second type was experimented on specific targets. Goes to show you are never too old to learn something new. Found this piece on what stik described:

www.youtube.com/watch

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Posted by MAgather on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 8:34 PM

I saw pictures of a US fighter (P-40, P-51??) with the tail propped up and shooting into a berm with a  caption about the armorers sighting in the wing mounted MG's.  

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  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, May 27, 2014 8:54 PM

Yes, wing mounted guns are "harmonized" on the ground to converge at a given distance in front of the aircraft. On taildraggers that is usually with the tail propped up firing at a target against an earthen berm a known distance down rage. Some pilots would have their crew chief set their guns for a different range, often closer than the prescribed distance.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

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Posted by seasick on Wednesday, May 28, 2014 6:25 PM

The Wikipedia list the IOC of the K-5 (NATO: AA-1 Alkali) in Soviet Service was 1959. It used Beam riding guidance.

AIM-4A/B had their IOC in 1955. "A" was semi-active, "B" was rear aspect IR homing.

AIM-9B had its IOC in 1956 and the firs combat use is listed as 24 September 1958.

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