what bomb is this?

The Standard ARM was the USN's new RIM-66B with the anti-radiation homing from the Shrike and a slightly bigger computer with a small core memory (IIRC) that would remember where the radar source was if it was switched off. Also longer ranged and faster than shrike.  

There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots...

you know the rest ;)

I just read  'Cheating Death' about the Sandys. I am now reading "Bury us upside down" about Misty.. Just like in WWII..One pass was dubious. Two was suicidal. Three was insane (and usually involved a parachute). But 5?? Oh wow! Those guys were my type of fellows. Calculated, with a spirit of adventure...or just plain nuts!

It could be worse, Stik,,,,,it could have been the "test load" on the FJ-4B, they had 5 Bullpups and the guidance pod.

Sane heads prevailed, though, they wound up with a maximum service load of 3 Bullpups, the Pod, and two tanks. Sadly that is still three passes, lol.  Bet that deal was a hoot at night? (one, three or five of them, lol)

Exactly. Read about the first F-105 strike on the Thanh Hoa bridge in April 1965. You go thru all that, and then watch your Bullpups bounce off the target when they do hit it. Oh yeah, you're carrying two and can only fire and guide one at a time, so you gotta come around and make another run!!!

In Action...

A rapidly declining 3D, then 2D, reference. True. Single pilot...Like flying two planes at once..

heh, ask Tom (Superheat) the former Crusader guy what he thinks of the Bullpup someday. You mention a Wizzo,,,,just imagine all you describe while flying a single seat aircraft. Tom is veryyyy outspoken about not liking even the idea of the Bullpup.

And I agree with him, I met quite a few Skyhawk pilots back in the day,,,,and they all said the Bullpup was okay (even fun) during training but "no one shoots at us during training"

It is hard to believe that a missile so hated by the pilots lasted from FJ-4B Fury days up into the A-4 and F-8 days in Vietnam. I have a photo of one on an A-4F Late, which started service in 1973-74 or so.

That bullpup must've been the most stressful AG missle ever designed. A little joystick used for the WSO to track and guide it visually. All the while pulling G's, getting shot at, jinking etc. etc.. Must've given those guys an extra beer ration in the O club?

TarnShip

One small warning about that link I posted way up towards  the beginning of this thread,,,,,,those photos will work as a general reference to help tell things apart,,,,,,but, there is no guarantee that each model bomb in each of those sets is entirely accurate. So, use them for general ID work, but for dimensions and accuracy, you would need some other references.

I ran across this issue with AGM-78 (Standard ARM) provided in the HobbyBoss F-105G. It was way smaller than the AGM-78 in the Hasegawa weapons set I. I suspected the Hasegawa was the correct size but used the USAF weapons file I mentioned above to verify my suspicion.

Yes indeed. I have a couple of those Trumpeter 1/32 aircraft weapons sets. Their shape & accuracy is fair to middling at best. But I got a good deal on 'em ;)

I hear you Stik,,,,,,,,I am supposed to be working on Anne's truck,,,,,,,,but, I figure that darned thing will break something else whether I fix this current problem or not. I see the parts man more than Anne these days,,,,,stop me if I say "goodnight honey" to him instead of her one day.

One small warning about that link I posted way up towards  the beginning of this thread,,,,,,those photos will work as a general reference to help tell things apart,,,,,,but, there is no guarantee that each model bomb in each of those sets is entirely accurate. So, use them for general ID work, but for dimensions and accuracy, you would need some other references.

Rex

Hello!

Very interesting info here, and nice photos, too! Thanks a lot for sharing and have a nice day!

Paweł

I was wondering about that seeker head/guidance section. Thanks for the info. The Bullwinder is a new one for me. Kinda like the Sidearm (AIM-9C with the SARH seekerhead converted to act as an ARM), not commonly seen or used, but sounded like a good idea.

As far as the Nukes and Chems being a dark subject area, I agree. But I must have spent too much time in MOPP 4 in my formative years and have a Dr Strangelove attitude towards those sorts of things. I find them quite fascinating, in their own dark and sinister way.

I really should go work on a model here...

I like those kinds of shots too, Stik. TT's Scooter! book has some combos like that in it,,,,,,,it includes the Bull Winder, a Bullpup with the seeker head from a Sidewinder.  I don't know why the Bull Winder didn't get more traction, it seems more logical than "follow the missile towards the ground and pull up when you see nothing but the fireball in front of you" I do recall some comments about the Bull Winder being great for blowing up things that were already on fire though, because if it's IR guidance.

I am very glad that we never needed to use what some of these things represent, a Nuke Bullpup being actually used would mean that things were going very poorly for the forces that used them.  Almost the same as poor Canada if the Genies would have actually be needed for their mission.

hmmm, I need to get back to the "safe place" of only talking about things that blow up normally again, lol,,,,,,,,Nukes and Chems are such dark subjects

Rex

No worries my friend. I misunderstood you about 2 Mk.83s being carried on a TER being over their weight limit.

The nuke Bullpup just had me pondering... the Bullpup is a manually command line of site guided missile, much like its' WWII forebears. The pilot, WSO, or B/N has to visually track a flare in the rear of the missile and guide it via a joystick sending commands by radio link to course correct all the way to target. Now with a nuclear warhead, somebody has to keep eyes on until around the time of detonation, thus most likely blinding him with the nuclear flash. Not exactly a well thought out weapon to me. At least with the "idiots loop" toss of a freefall gravity nuke, the aircraft is heading away from the blast and the pilot, WSO, B/N can draw the blast curtains to save their eyesight.

If they can put a nuke inside a man loaded 155mm or 8" artillery shell, I am sure there is no problem putting one in the original size Bullpup with its' 250lb warhead.

Yes my mind has too much time to think as I age...

I like this shot of both missile types under one wing...

yes, Stik, I am sure of the weight limit of the TER, it is in between the 2250# that triple M117s and the 3000# that triple Mk83s would weigh (the actual weights aren't 750 and 1000 pounds, though)

I see that those are AGM-12C Bullpup Bs now. The various places that say the Nukes are based on the larger shape do so because of the increase in the weight, I think. They see "larger than 1000#" and think that makes them a larger size than the Bullpup As,,,,in truth, Nukes after the Mk 7 are *smaller* than conventional bombs because they are far more dense than steel or explosives, about like the difference in being packed with lead instead of gunpowder. There is actually dead space inside the Bullpup A case if it is a Bullpup D (nuke)

Rex

(found the stat) M117 "750s" weighed 799 pounds, and Mk83 "1000s" weighed 985 pounds

F-105 firing Big Bullpup... Backblast area clear!

OK, I found this shot of the small Bullpup on a F-105. As you can see, they can be carried with the wing tanks.. IIRC, the larger size of the Big Bullpup made it so on the centerline drop tank had to be carried and not the wing tanks. F-105s were voracious fuel guzzlers.

Big Bullpup on the F-105

I stand corrected on the Bullpup variant nomenclature. But those are the AGM-12C, Big Bullpup. You can see the step from the warhead to the nose guidance section, as well as the larger rear fins. The standard AGM-12B looks much smaller on a Thuds wing. I will see if I can dig up a photo. I had read that the Big Bullpup was the Bullpup D. I do know that the conventional version of the Big Bullpup had both standard HE warhead and a cluster munition type warhead developed for it.

Theuns, to my knowledge, the MER is the same piece of hardware, just mounted on whichever pylon hardpoint.

Rex, are you sure about the TER weight limit? I have seen photos of 3 x M-117 750lb bombs on TERs and that would give more weight than 2 x Mk.83s 1000lb bombs. It must be a CG issue with their length.

Theuns

Is there a difference between the CL MER and the wig MER's?

Maybe I can convert one of the kit's wing MER's into the correct CL MER for the stack of MK 82's they supply.

Theuns

Does the kit give you MERs? If so, you could convert it to carry Mk. 82s, but you still need to source or scratch a centerline pylon...or maybe cut it off the centerline fuel tank?? Also, notice the 2 reinforcing straps that go around the bomb bay in one of Stik's pics. Some Thuds had them, some didn't. 

Is there a difference between the CL MER and the wig MER's?

Maybe I can convert one of the kit's wing MER's into the correct CL MER for the stack of MK 82's they supply.

Theuns

also, notice the stagger on the MER if they carried Mk 83, that is because they were usually carried in pairs on a MER, but, didn't fit if they were inline, some aircraft carried the pairs on one end, if they could mount the MER in "shifted" mode,,,,,,,I don't know if the F-105 could "shift" the MER or not

They had to do that because 2 1000# bombs exceeded the weight limit of a TER (if not for the weight limit, 2 Mk 83s would be a logical looking load on a TER) (that limit might have been a CG limit on the TER, I am not positive now)

Rex

umm, those are Bullpup A, the AGM-12B model (small tactical version)

AGM-12C was the Bullpup B (larger tactical version),,,,,,and the D model was the Nuke version that didn't get deployed to Vietnam

see the table at the bottom of this page

www.designation-systems.net/.../m-12.html

Rex

Bullpup C

Shrikes carried when part of a Hunter Killer team with a Weasel element leader

When Migs became a serious threat to the Thud force, one of the ECM pods was replaced by a Sidewinder on strike packages going where the Mig threat was highest

The less commonly seen/photographed Mk.82 loadout

SUU-30 carried for Flak Suppression/SAM Suppression- too big to carry 6 on a centerline MER, so they are carried in a "flat four" configuration