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Any advice please on how to make gunfire damage holes on planes?

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  • Member since
    March 2007
Any advice please on how to make gunfire damage holes on planes?
Posted by KAYSEE88 on Sunday, June 5, 2016 5:59 AM

whats the easiest ways to make them? and how should entrance and exit holes be different?

Its my FIRST TIME doing these Crying.....i really need some help! Thanks guys

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, June 5, 2016 9:20 AM

Imperative to look at pictures and not make it up.

Aircraft-to-aircraft versus ground-to-aircraft.

Bullet versus cannon shell versus shrapnel.

As far as entrance and exit, once a bullet enters a plane, it's going to hit something and defect around.

One well documented sequence I have of a bomber hit by ground fire. A cannon shell, probably a 20mm or 37mm, came up through the nose making a hole about the size of a basketball, carommed around inside destroying the instrument panel and one of the pilots, and didn't visibly ever exit. A collection of photos taken on the ground were very helpful to understand the effect.

Really, if possible work from photos.

And, don't go the Snoopy route with the row of stitch marks, not how it works.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Sunday, June 5, 2016 11:04 AM

GMorrison

Imperative to look at pictures and not make it up.

Aircraft-to-aircraft versus ground-to-aircraft.

Really, if possible work from photos.

And, don't go the Snoopy route with the row of stitch marks, not how it works.

 

Very well said G. LOL about the Snoopy bit, good one.

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
    August 2014
Posted by Timdude on Sunday, June 5, 2016 3:52 PM

When a bullet (lead or steel) hits an aircraft (Aluminum) it will start by making a dent followed by a small hole not much bigger than the round, lets say around 1/2 inch or so. If it hit at an angle (which it will 99% of the time) it would oblonged. The paint will also chip to some degree at the point of impact. As was stated already the damage that will bring the aircraft down will be what the round hits inside. Of couse explosive rounds are different. A lot of damage in photos is caused be flak not other aircraft. Also, considerable amount of damage is due to the aerodynamic effects after the hit has been taken such as fabric or even entire access panels or cowling departing the aircraft. As was stated, pictures pictures pictures! Also, don't always trust the captions.

Tim

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Central Ohio
Posted by Ashley on Monday, June 6, 2016 5:48 PM

In order to make it look convincing, you will have to thin the plastic from the back side until it is thin enough to see light through. Then, you will be able to puncture and tear it so that it takes the shapes that thin sheet metal does when a projectile passes through it. The best tutorial on this is still the immortal Shep Paines' "Building Dioramas".

Have you flown a Ford lately?

  • Member since
    September 2009
Posted by Cobra 427 on Monday, June 6, 2016 9:15 PM

UGH!! You guys are all talking in circles!! What I think he means is what is the easiest METHOD of making convincing holes. Try using a soldering iron, or drilling small holes with a tiny machinsts drill bit. This is how I do it, and it works every single time.

 

~ Cobra Chris

Maybe a picture of a squirrel playing a harmonica will make you feel better?

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Bucks county, PA
Posted by Bucksco on Monday, June 6, 2016 10:22 PM

Get ahold of "How to build dioramas" by Shep Paine - best investment you will ever make. As stated above you basically need to thin the plastic where you want the damage with a moto tool and a burr and then insert a sharp X-acto knife and twist until you get the desired effect. Shep's book has great illustrations of this method.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Monday, June 6, 2016 11:53 PM

Or, try to model the thing the way it actually looked. Shep, may I burn in He77, never really looked at aircraft or pictures.

The real thing, flak:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQSy4cRd4gk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TealLv1W1hE

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    June 2016
Posted by David from PA on Tuesday, June 7, 2016 2:56 PM

Note that, as in the second video, a lot of those damaged planes still got you home. Better to sleep on a warm cot than in a wet channel.

David in PA

On the flight deck: Trumpeter 1/32 F4F-3 (Late)

In the Hangar: Undecided

David From PA

 

 

  • Member since
    April 2012
Posted by F-100 John on Wednesday, June 8, 2016 7:01 PM

Try using a small amount of cement in gluing a circular piece of aluminum foil around a hole you selected on any part of the model; punch  a small hole in the foil & curl the ragged edges outward & upward, simulating the shell passing thru the skin .Paint the interior side zinc chromate & the exterior side the normal color of the aircraft skin. The very thin foil certainly represents the metal aircraft on any scale. Experiment w/ different shaped holes & sizes.

F-100 John

  • Member since
    August 2014
Posted by Timdude on Wednesday, June 8, 2016 8:08 PM

Interesting, do you have any pictures? Inquiring minds want to know.

Tim

F-100 John

Try using a small amount of cement in gluing a circular piece of aluminum foil around a hole you selected on any part of the model; punch  a small hole in the foil & curl the ragged edges outward & upward, simulating the shell passing thru the skin .Paint the interior side zinc chromate & the exterior side the normal color of the aircraft skin. The very thin foil certainly represents the metal aircraft on any scale. Experiment w/ different shaped holes & sizes.

F-100 John

 

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Thursday, June 9, 2016 12:14 PM

Cobra 427

UGH!! You guys are all talking in circles!! What I think he means is what is the easiest METHOD of making convincing holes...

I have to disagree with you.  I don't think the respondents are talking in circles.  I took each response to be the person's opinion on precisely the question of the easiest method.

I have to agree with everyone who mentioned Shep Paine's work, because I always think back to the TBD diorama and the 20mm shell holes he made in the fuselage.  He used his Dremel to grind material away behind the spot where he wanted to make a hole, and then punched through the thinned plastic with an X-Acto knife blade.  I use that technique, too.  And in my opinion, removing material to thin the plastic and then punching a hole is the easiest method to reproduce bullet or shell damage on an aircraft's fuselage.

Best regards,

Brad

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2009
Posted by Cobra 427 on Thursday, June 9, 2016 12:42 PM

the Baron

 

 
Cobra 427

UGH!! You guys are all talking in circles!! What I think he means is what is the easiest METHOD of making convincing holes...

 

 

I have to disagree with you.  I don't think the respondents are talking in circles.  I took each response to be the person's opinion on precisely the question of the easiest method.

 

Best regards,

Brad

 

Let me elaborate on that: What I meant is that it seems that everyone is saying the same thing only reworded so that I had to read a couple of these twice to understand what they were saying. Meaning that after a while the same things being said over and over makes like a circle - one abridging the other.  It makes for more confusion when there are so many different views when all you want is a simple exlanation. I've done the drill bit/hot iron technique for so many years that I have it down to a science. Thinning plastic down isn't necessary when all you want is a hole in the fuselage, or wing. I've found that by simply drilling a small hole, then using a hot soldering iron to smooth the edge a little makes for a very convincing effect. With a little practice you too can use this method, and get the result you desire. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

 

~ Cobra Chris

Maybe a picture of a squirrel playing a harmonica will make you feel better?

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by BrandonD on Thursday, June 9, 2016 4:08 PM

If you want to do a panel or two, it might be good to cut out the panel and make a new one out of lead foil (wine bottle wrap) or alminum foil. That will give you the right thickness. I saw that done well with a crashed Bf-109 in a Meng Air Modeler issue.

-BD-

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: Jerome, Idaho, U.S.A.
Posted by crackers on Friday, June 10, 2016 11:41 PM

Would a hot needle held by a pair of pliers applied to the plastic surface be a convincing replication of a bullet hole ?

Happy modeling  Crackers  Smile

Anthony V. Santos

  • Member since
    October 2004
  • From: Orlando, Florida
Posted by ikar01 on Saturday, June 11, 2016 12:30 AM

  • Member since
    May 2006
Posted by Rob Beach on Saturday, June 11, 2016 1:56 AM

Key concept:

thin sheet metal vs solid or explosive projectiles.

ikar01's examples show the result of explosive projectiles which (like a grenade) turn into fragments once exploded.  Cannon can use explosive projectiles whereas machine guns generally do not.  Most damage from flak (anti-aircraft guns) would be from fragments coming from the exterior of the a/c unless it was a direct hit, then there would be some explosive effects (deformation in addition to scattered torn holes.)

So to get more basic, before you can depict 'battle damage', you should consider the source of the damage: AA or other aircraft, projectile (solid shot - heavy or lighter - or  fragments), or explosive (subset direct or indirect).  Consider the path of the projectiles or fragments and how that would impact the holes in the skin. Even figure in whether there might have been impact damage from "stuff" (or even other airplanes!) hitting your a/c.

Also, don't forget that not all parts of the exterior skin will be metal.  Fabric covered control surfaces were common in WWII (WWI being of course mostly fabric covered...) while the 'jet age' forced a change to almost all being metal covered.  Plus, there are parts made of other materials to be addressed such as fiberglass, plastics, etc. - so know the materials of your subject.

Then, as Chris recommended, look at a selection of battle damage images, the more the better.  Note that sometimes there is fire damage as well, which also impacts the situation since most metals will weaken under high heat and deform under the slipstream & structural loads.  Speaking of structure, you might wish to also depict some internal damage as well since it may be visible through the 'holes'.  Think what the result was after the 'hit', including what did the airstream do (like tearing away portions of a fabric covered surface exposing the underlying metal framework), what components were damaged (such as was there a fire after an engine hit...)

As for the actual damage, you should aim for a 'thin skin' then rip it & tear it according to your ideas of how the damage came about.  Cutting out a section and replacing with a bit of aluminum foil - blended in at the edges with putty - looks very good for larger, exploded or fragged sections.  Smaller areas can be thinned from the inside and then punched with a needle, knife tip, whatever does the job.  Glass will shatter & crack, plastics will crack, break off in chunks or show rough holes, fabrics will tear & then shred into tatters in the wind or just have relatively clean holes punched through (can be depicted using thin paper applied over a plastic card framework... paint carefully with thinned 'white glue' to stiffen, then 'rip' away.)  Even the classic 'movie' effect of the bullets 'stitching' across the airframe could be done, though it would tend to be much more random than regular!  (You've seen those WWII gunnery films used in so many movies that show how the tracers tend to go arcing along in rather less than orderly fashion?)  Aerial gunnery isn't like a laser beam but more like a spitting waterhose.  Both a/c are moving, the guns firing shakes things up and there is the offset from the 'synched' aiming point.  If you took some paint and then flicked it off a toothbrush onto some paper, you'd get a bit of the pattern involved...

Although you asked a simple question, there are a lot variables involved.  Nice thing is, you can practice your technique(s) before committing to your model!

Hope this helps; Regards, Robert

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