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IJN aircraft primer

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  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Florida
IJN aircraft primer
Posted by plasticjunkie on Friday, October 20, 2017 11:25 PM

I'm building a Val and ran into a detail issue. As I have read the IJN primed all their aircraft even during late in the war. On the other hand, the other services dropped primer application by late 43 to early 44 causing poor paint adhesion creating the extensive paint peeling seen in period photos of Japanese aircraft.

I found a color picture of a Val with no green paint but where the orange/red primer is clearly visible except on the fabric control surfaces. So my question is then any paint peeling on IJN planes would have exposed the primer and not bare metal? This is apparent in a color 1945 picture of a Seiran showing the primer under the worn and peeling green paint.  

Any thoughts, theories, pictures etc.

  • Member since
    July, 2016
Posted by Johnny1000 on Monday, October 23, 2017 5:16 AM

Have you seen this?

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/weathering_question.htm

tl;dr
Slow to adapt to best practices for covering metal aircraft in a salt air environment, inconsistant application of primer, poor paint jobs in the field, declining quality of paint over the war, none of which is consistant from aircraft to aircraft.

-J

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Monday, October 23, 2017 6:47 AM

Johnny1000

Have you seen this?

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/weathering_question.htm

tl;dr
Slow to adapt to best practices for covering metal aircraft in a salt air environment, inconsistant application of primer, poor paint jobs in the field, declining quality of paint over the war, none of which is consistant from aircraft to aircraft.

-J

 

Yes that is a very good article indeed. Someone posted a picture of a Jack (IJAAF) and a Zeke (IJN) side by side in the same bone yard and the navy Zeke's paint looked almost new compared to the Jack's peeling and flaking paint. Apparent proof of the durability and advantages of primer use by the navy.

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • From: Northeast Washington State
Posted by ExtremeTeam on Monday, October 23, 2017 9:58 AM

It is difficult to tell about primer but it looks like this Kate has extensive paint peeling.

Kate

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • From: Northeast Washington State
Posted by ExtremeTeam on Monday, October 23, 2017 9:59 AM

Another view

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Monday, October 23, 2017 11:21 AM

ExtremeTeam

It is difficult to tell about primer but it looks like this Kate has extensive paint peeling.

Kate

 

Looks like one of the Akagi's planes. That is the issue with the B&W pictures but it looks too light to be a red primer and IMO looks like NMF. Great looking picture, thanks.

  • Member since
    June, 2004
  • From: 29° 58' N 95° 21' W
Posted by seasick on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 7:03 PM

The go to preservative - primer for aluminium at that time for everybody was zinc chromate. Zinc chromate by itself in paint is the color called buttercup yellow.  Frequently some black or a dark color is mixed in for a second coat of paint.  Since it was primer there was no standard for the color.  The Japaanese did not have a unified color system and colors varied frequently. Then paint was shipped in bags at mixed on site where painting was done (the US did this to). The solvent could be mineral spirits at the factory, but automotive gasoline, avation gasoline, diesel fuel or any other petroleum distilate on hand at bases. All of these can alter the color. Binding agents for the paint probably were suffering in quality because of shortages.  Finally up until the mid 1950s color film had a problem with blue fadeing out. Colors you may see might have been different but lost their blue component.  Also many of the records about such things were lost in 1945 when the second atomic bomb vaporized the IJN head quaters in Nagasaki.   

Chasing the ultimate build.

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 9:10 PM

seasick

The go to preservative - primer for aluminium at that time for everybody was zinc chromate. Zinc chromate by itself in paint is the color called buttercup yellow.  Frequently some black or a dark color is mixed in for a second coat of paint.  Since it was primer there was no standard for the color.  The Japaanese did not have a unified color system and colors varied frequently. Then paint was shipped in bags at mixed on site where painting was done (the US did this to). The solvent could be mineral spirits at the factory, but automotive gasoline, avation gasoline, diesel fuel or any other petroleum distilate on hand at bases. All of these can alter the color. Binding agents for the paint probably were suffering in quality because of shortages.  Finally up until the mid 1950s color film had a problem with blue fadeing out. Colors you may see might have been different but lost their blue component.  Also many of the records about such things were lost in 1945 when the second atomic bomb vaporized the IJN head quaters in Nagasaki.   

 

What you mention was called Aotake, an interior (and sometimes exterior) airframe primer:

http://colesaircraft.blogspot.com/2014/01/japanese-wwii-aircraft-aotake-primer.html

http://colesaircraft.blogspot.com/2014/08/japanese-wwii-aircraft-aotake-primer.html

My inquiry was regarding the exterior airframe primer color that I have seen in several color pictures which is reddish/brown in color. (scroll down half way to red Brown primer)

http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/IJNAF_Colors.htm

 

  • Member since
    July, 2003
  • From: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posted by ridleusmc on Wednesday, October 25, 2017 11:14 PM

I did run across the IJN primer question during my last build of a A6M3a.  I took my information from Modelling the Mitsubishi A6M Zero by Brian Criner (from Osprey Modelling).  It seems that the paint had a tendancey to wear and chip to expose both layers of primer and bare metal.  I very much liked how my Zero turned out, and I had fun doing it. 
 http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/2/t/176217.aspx?page=1

 

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Thursday, October 26, 2017 8:42 AM

Chris

Your Zero turned out looking fabulous. The chipping looks fantastic and sorry for missing your wip. That looks like a fairly involved method to remove and wear the paint but it does look  Toast.

I like using the hairspray method requiring only light stippling with water and a stiff brush to attack the hairspray and remove the paint for the desired effect.

Here is my Seiran done using cheap hairspray from the Dollar store:

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • From: Northeast Washington State
Posted by ExtremeTeam on Thursday, October 26, 2017 9:57 AM

I know there is a lot of variation but I found this picture interesting in terms of primer showing or not showing.  Being late war / end of war the application of primer may have been very different or non-existent from early war aircraft.  I just found this image and havent had a lot of time to study it yet.

Boneyard

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Thursday, October 26, 2017 10:51 AM

ExtremeTeam

I know there is a lot of variation but I found this picture interesting in terms of primer showing or not showing.  Being late war / end of war the application of primer may have been very different or non-existent from early war aircraft.  I just found this image and havent had a lot of time to study it yet.

Boneyard

 

Another excellent picture. The tail code on the one Zero looks to be IJAAF which would be lacking primer. The other one just on top a bit to the left seems to have some reddish on the wing trailing edge chipping. Could be rust or primer IMO.

Thanks for posting.

  • Member since
    January, 2017
  • From: Northeast Washington State
Posted by ExtremeTeam on Thursday, October 26, 2017 11:18 AM

I believe the Zero with tail code 601-131 is from the 601st Naval Air Group which operated from the carriers Unryu and Amagi (1944 to early 1945).  The 601 Naval Air Group was moved to airbase duty in early 1945.

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Thursday, October 26, 2017 12:03 PM

ExtremeTeam

I believe the Zero with tail code 601-131 is from the 601st Naval Air Group which operated from the carriers Unryu and Amagi (1944 to early 1945).  The 601 Naval Air Group was moved to airbase duty in early 1945.

 

Have noted your info, thanks. Like you said, near the end I'm sure quality control was non existent. 

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Saturday, November 11, 2017 7:54 AM

Here is an excellent picture of an Emily showing what I suspected, the red primer and some areas worn down to the bare metal.

http://files.hangame.co.jp/blog/2012/75/ca8d3de2/06/26/38792571/ca8d3de2_1340683276489.jpg

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