Backdating a B-17G to a B-17F?

FSM review of the Koster conversion kit.

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/2/t/135709.aspx

richs26

TWA, are you planning on making "Old 666", Jay Zeamer's 41-2666?  Did you know that "Old 666" was an E model, not an F.  The only true way to backdate to an E in 1/48 is to use a Koster E conversion which you can only get from Ebay, maybe.

 

Resin2Detail is supposedly nearing completion of an E conversion set but not sure when it will be out.  He must have some of the Koster molds since the nose glass is noted to be a former Koster part.

TWA, are you planning on making "Old 666", Jay Zeamer's 41-2666?  Did you know that "Old 666" was an E model, not an F.  The only true way to backdate to an E in 1/48 is to use a Koster E conversion which you can only get from Ebay, maybe.

Thanks everyone. I found an alright decal set for the G, so I'll probably use that and just wait till I can grab an F and do Old 666 the easier way. That was an excellent article that you linked too, by the way. 

-TWA

Someone mentioned the Cheyenne tail gun.  That is in the latest clear edition kit though I think I remember you have to do some cutting to use it.  One more tool in the Monogram B-17 arsenal!

JohnnyK

I built a Monogram 1/48 G model a number of years ago. It has staggered nose guns but the waist guns are not staggered??? However, the waist guns have closed windows.

 

The nose guns were always staggered. The G also introduced the closed waist and radio gun windows. Later the staggered waist windows and Cheyenne tail turret were introduced. The Cheyenne tail turret was also a field kit that could be retrofitted at air depots in theater.

I built a Monogram 1/48 G model a number of years ago. It has staggered nose guns but the waist guns are not staggered??? However, the waist guns have closed windows.

cabrown1

One thing you will also have to look at is the waist gunner positions. the G-model had staggered positions with closed windows that had gun mounts in them. Most F-models had the gun positions opposite of each other and open gun windows w/ the gun mounts just inside the fusalage. The gunners wore heated high-altitude suits in those positions. It's been so long since I have built or examined the Monogram kit, I can't remember exactly how they waist gunner positions are modeled in that kit. Also the later G-models had a Cheyenne powered tail gun mount. Again, not sure what Monogram has on the model. Good luck with the conversion. I have a Revell 1/48 Memphis Belle F-model with an old Koster conversion kit to backdate it to an E-model sitting on the shelf gathering dust.

Monogram's B-17G is an early G, without the staggered waist positions or the Cheyenne tail gun mount.  I've seen builds online where modelers have converted them to the staggered positions.

One thing you will also have to look at is the waist gunner positions. the G-model had staggered positions with closed windows that had gun mounts in them. Most F-models had the gun positions opposite of each other and open gun windows w/ the gun mounts just inside the fusalage. The gunners wore heated high-altitude suits in those positions. It's been so long since I have built or examined the Monogram kit, I can't remember exactly how they waist gunner positions are modeled in that kit. Also the later G-models had a Cheyenne powered tail gun mount. Again, not sure what Monogram has on the model. Good luck with the conversion. I have a Revell 1/48 Memphis Belle F-model with an old Koster conversion kit to backdate it to an E-model sitting on the shelf gathering dust.

Navigator had the cheek guns if the bombardier had the nose. Engineer had top turret and radio operator had his own gun in the radio compartment. 

I would guess that the bombardier operated the nose turret. Who operarted the two side guns, the engineer, radio operator, navigator?

JohnnyK

Those are really great photos.   The B-17F was manufactured by three different companys which is one reason that there were so many different nose configurations. The last photo looks like the final version of the F model just prior to the G model. It has the same nose windows and gun port as the G model.

 

Yes, those bulged windows started off as field mods, and later field installed kits. They may eventually have been factory installed on late F production blocks. But the staggering position configuration was reversed on the G, with the right nose gun window being aft of the left nose gun window, 

Those are really great photos.   The B-17F was manufactured by three different companys which is one reason that there were so many different nose configurations. The last photo looks like the final version of the F model just prior to the G model. It has the same nose windows and gun port as the G model.

redraider56

  With Fs they were figuring it out on the fly which is why they had so many different arrangements and field mods.

 

Here are some different F nose configurations. Aside from cheek windows and guns, the early block Fs also had a flush top navigator window, while most had a bulged dome.

Here are photos of the nose of a B-17F and a B-17G.

The differences are numerous and would require a lot of work. You would need to remove the nose turret, change the nose windows and change the plexiglas nose (that would be the most difficult). Just my opinion, why not just buy a B-17F?

As others have said, you’ll need to modify the nose windows and nose cone depending on which subject you choose.  Some very late Fs actually Had the chin turret.  Some had cheek guns (in a different arangement than the G) and some didn’t.  Youll need to modify windows no matter what.  Paul’s article is a very good read.  Even if you end up buying the F kit you may need to modify windows on that if you decide you want to build a later F.  The nose gun arrangement on the G was the product of knowing what worked best in combat.  With Fs they were figuring it out on the fly which is why they had so many different arrangements and field mods.

Back in 1989, Paul Budzik had a feature article in FSM that gave a great insight into converting the Monogram -G to a -F series Fortress. It has been reprinted a few times in Kalmbach's books since then and Paul has a transcript of the article up on his site here-

http://paulbudzik.com/tools-techniques/B-17%20Conversion/monogram_b-17_conversion.html

B-17 Memphis Belle is the F version. Hobby lobby has it for $39.99 but with a 40% coupon, it's a steal.

Between a late F and an early G, aside from the chin turret, the other big difference is the shape and size of the nose cone glazing. The F had a larger and more forward extended glazing. The G nose glazing was more cut back like the E, but with minimal framing for better visibility.

Depending upon the production block of F, the nose window arrangement, and gun configuration varied. 

Some of the windeows around the nose are different, but you'll have to pick a specific airplane to model to get that right anyway, lots of field modifications with those windows forward of the windscreen.  The engines were the same on F's and G's.  Even a late E is the same there but the nose glass was different and the ball turret wasn't there at first.