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Mosquito weathering

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  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Hatboro, PA
Mosquito weathering
Posted by Justinryan215 on Saturday, April 27, 2019 5:54 AM

ive done a precursory search that didn’t really answer my query, so I figured I’d ask the gurus here!

 

im rounding the corner of painting and weathering the airframe of my Tamiya 1/48th Mosquito, and I’m doing some research on how beat up and war weary these birds got...did being made of mostly wood keep it ‘cleaner’ than its aluminum counterparts?  Would a black basing type approach to the refinishing be acceptable?

 

what say ye, aircraft gurus?

"...failure to do anything because someone else can do better makes us rather dull and lazy..."

Mortal as I am,I know that I am born for a day.  But when I follow at my pleasure the serried multitude of the stars in their circular course, my feet no longer touch the Earth...

 

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Saturday, April 27, 2019 6:03 AM

I would not think being made of wood would keep it any cleaner, it would still stain. Of course, what you would not have is lots of metal chipping. I recently finished a Tamiya Mossie and weathered it as i would any otehr kit. I was doing an aircraft that was pretty new so just some exhaust stains and a light flory wash.

''I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so''

''Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?''

On the bench: Airfix 1/600 HMS Belfast/AMT Trade Federation Tank

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Hatboro, PA
Posted by Justinryan215 on Saturday, April 27, 2019 6:14 AM

That’s kind of what I was thinking, and while I am by no means a “river counter”, I still want to try and give the paint some interest and depth, but don’t want to overdo it too much.  My only thoughts of the difference in paint weathering between the wood and metal sort of stem from my automotive refinish experience, where the different substrates between plastic bumper covers and steel (or aluminum) body panels created different paint appearances and paint mismatch, even if painted together...

thanks for your insight and opinion, Bish!

"...failure to do anything because someone else can do better makes us rather dull and lazy..."

Mortal as I am,I know that I am born for a day.  But when I follow at my pleasure the serried multitude of the stars in their circular course, my feet no longer touch the Earth...

 

  • Member since
    November, 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Saturday, April 27, 2019 6:38 AM

Justinryan215

That’s kind of what I was thinking, and while I am by no means a “river counter”, I still want to try and give the paint some interest and depth, but don’t want to overdo it too much.  My only thoughts of the difference in paint weathering between the wood and metal sort of stem from my automotive refinish experience, where the different substrates between plastic bumper covers and steel (or aluminum) body panels created different paint appearances and paint mismatch, even if painted together...

thanks for your insight and opinion, Bish!

 

Both metal and wood are primered before painting, so there is no color difference between the same substrate, even with different color primer (or clear dope).  Thirties and Forties light planes were a mix of metal (cowl areas and such, wood, and fabric.  The paint looked the same- it was hard to tell which was which just by looking at the paint.  Look at pictures of Stinson Reliant, Pipers of any sort from that era.

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    November, 2003
  • From: Naples, FL
Posted by tempestjohnny on Saturday, April 27, 2019 8:11 AM
I think the paint would still show fading and the engine cowls would show oil and grease staining as well as the flying surfaces

 

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, April 27, 2019 8:51 AM

You’re just not going to have a lot of panel lines or chipping/bare metal areas. There will be the usual exhaust stains, fluid leaks, etc. Paint will fade and get weathered. But keep in mind the service life length of an aircraft.The Mosquito was constantly being improved and new models introduced. So older ones would be sent from combat units back to training units.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Monday, April 29, 2019 4:05 AM

I am going to throw some information into the ring here which not many people know about the Mosquito construction.

The actual finished surface of the aircraft or skin is not wood but a fabric waterproofed and glued onto the wood with taped edges Then doped.

I was able to get close to this when Tony Agars' Mosquito was at the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington before its move to the Lincolnshire Heritage aviation (no idea for the reason for the move).

I am not sure what the fabric is, but I suspect a tight wove canvas and is there to protect the plywood sheets from the weather etc. as the fabric is doped too it also provides rigidity to the structure too. The mossie is very much a light and increadibly strong aircraft.

just think that this wooden structure had not only 2 Merlins hanging off the wings but the bomber variant with bulged doors could carry a 4000lb blockbuster to Berlin and the fighter bomber variant could carry 4 .303 and 4 20mm cannon plus 2 1000lb bombs.

The Luftwaffe fighter pilots had great respect for this aircraft as it actually had a flight performance very similar to the Mk IX Spitfire and with an experienced pilot could outfight the Me 109 and FW 190 Or at least cause them some headaches!

So, when it comes to weathering you should look at fabric staining techniques after a non-weathered paint job of Ocean grey/Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey for which I reccomend Vallejo's paint set for the RAF.

the exceptions to that weathering would be the engine cowlings which were metal.

There is a Mosquito being rebuilt to return to flight here in the UK. Look up The People's Mosquito. This will be a good source of information for modellers.

NOTE:  Warbirds flown at displays are not being flown as they would have been in combat. They are being flown slowly and gently to show them to the crowd. If a Spitfire or Mosquito were to fly down the flight line at combat speeds of around 400mph and pull away in a very tight climbing turn you would not be able to get a decent photograph unless you have professional grade camera setup.

I know as I used to own my own Mk IX Spitfire before I had a virus which destroyed my heart and so stopped my ability to fly. I used to finish a gentle display and fly pasts with a low level full speed combat fly past with a sharp climbing turn and roll. This showed what the aircraft was capable of and I did pull a significant amount of G in the climbing turn and roll.

  • Member since
    November, 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Monday, April 29, 2019 8:31 AM

snapdragonxxx

...

So, when it comes to weathering you should look at fabric staining techniques after a non-weathered paint job of Ocean grey/Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey for which I reccomend Vallejo's paint set for the RAF.

....

 

The dope should protect the fabric (linen usually) from stains.  Usually the last coat of dope was silver dope, which protects linen from sunlight UV.  There are newer fabrics (non-plant based), but for period planes it would have been linen.  So any stains or surface crud like exhaust stains would look the same whether the structure underneath was metal or fabric (most wood structures were covered with fabric).

 

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Monday, April 29, 2019 10:07 AM

Here is the website of the Peoples Mosquito

http://www.peoplesmosquito.org.uk/

There is also a Hawker Typhoon being restored to airworthy flight too

https://hawkertyphoon.com/

 

More Merlins and a Napier Sabre engine will be heard on the flight circuit in the future!

  • Member since
    December, 2018
Posted by Tosh on Monday, April 29, 2019 11:58 AM

Here’s what I used on my Tamiya 1/32 Mosquito.  My build is not perfect by any means, but I was very happy with the results and so was FSM Digital Gallery.  It is in the Digital Gallery of 2018.  Go ahead and take a look.

I used what snapdragonxxx recommended in that it was Vallejo Colors shot freehand with a Iwata Eclipse HP-CS.  Then I used the Testors Natural Enamel Stain and AB with a NEO by Iwata.  If you want to know more, I’d be happy to answer your questions to the best of my abilities!  Good luck and have fun!

Your Friend, Toshi

Reside in Streetsboro, Ohio

At work with my grandson Ezra, building a Bandai 1/144 X-Wing Starfighter and a Y-Wing Starfighter.

 

  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 4:18 AM

That looks really good, Toshi, my friend.

Is it me or the photo, but the Ocean Grey upper seems a little light, or did you go with the Medium Sea Grey all over with the dark green disruptive camo?

I must have a go at Tamiya's 1/32 kits. The Zero, Mk IX spit and Mossie look really nice.

I must admit that Vallejo is my primary source as they don't go for the scale conversion paint theory as AK and others do so you know that the colours are accurate. Doesn't stop me dipping into those ranges for colours that aren't in the Vallejo range, such as the cowling blue black seen on Japanese aircraft which, incidentally, AK don't seem to have messed with the shade of that one!

Incidentally, how do you get your stuff in the FSM Gallery??

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 6:38 AM

Not a fan of Vallejo paints but Mission Model paints and AK Interactive Real Color are putting out impressive accurate colors.

  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 8:44 AM

Don't be fooled by the real colour. They aren't. AK are still scale correcting.

I bought their RAL 7028 set for german armour and none of the colours matched the chipsets or the original colours made for my armour by and OEM manufacturer in Germany. Also, some of their colours are pure fiction!

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 10:49 AM

I like Model Master’s take on RAF colors. Too bad their quality control is slipping. 

But man this thread has me wanting to build another Mosquito now...

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December, 2018
Posted by Tosh on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 12:39 PM

Thank you snapdragonxxx!  That is very kind of you to comment on my Tamiya Mosquito build.  The color was a medium sea gray if my memory serves me right from Vallejo‘s Model Air RAF Paint Set.  It is the Testors Natural wash that gives the Vallejo medium sea gray a different hue on camera.  In actual look in my home it is a RAF color that looks weathered worn.  

As for my 1/32 Mosquito in the Readers Gallery, I simply submitted and wait to see if it is chosen.  It’s because of FSM Members like you in that I’ve learned different techniques.  I’ve had two F4-U Corsairs (Tamiya 1/32 and a Revell 1/48), Zoukei Mura 1/48 Shinden, Monogram 1/48 “Visible“ B-17G Flying Fortress fully loaded with Eduard PE, Trumpeter 1/32 Harrier, and this Mosquito in the Readers Gallery.

I just sent in my last build of the Trumpeter 1/32 Avenger I built with Ezra my grandson.  I really hope it gets chosen.  Not many FSM Members have a three year old AB and know how to use Tamiya Extra Thin Cement.  Lol!

Your friend, Toshi

Reside in Streetsboro, Ohio

At work with my grandson Ezra, building a Bandai 1/144 X-Wing Starfighter and a Y-Wing Starfighter.

 

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 12:45 PM

snapdragonxxx

Don't be fooled by the real colour. They aren't. AK are still scale correcting.

I bought their RAL 7028 set for german armour and none of the colours matched the chipsets or the original colours made for my armour by and OEM manufacturer in Germany. Also, some of their colours are pure fiction!

 

Prove your claim they're pure fiction. Last I've heard Real Colors have been getting rave reviews. And who's to say Vallejo is spot on while others aren't? There is no real proof between paint companies which is the true color shade.

Sure different paint companies put out an Olive drab or zinc chromate but a shade different. Even RAF Sky is different in shades/tint. None claim to be the most accurate, spot on match to the real thing. Even if one mixes his own paints in attempt to match it close to the real thing.

Scale correcting will never be achieved no matter what they do. Take it as acceptable to the builder, not what's the correct shade by scale or wrong by scale.

Regardless, it's up to the builder to choose what paint they chose to use. 

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 4:56 PM

Tosh

Here’s what I used on my Tamiya 1/32 Mosquito.  My build is not perfect by any means, but I was very happy with the results and so was FSM Digital Gallery.  It is in the Digital Gallery of 2018.  Go ahead and take a look.

I used what snapdragonxxx recommended in that it was Vallejo Colors shot freehand with a Iwata Eclipse HP-CS.  Then I used the Testors Natural Enamel Stain and AB with a NEO by Iwata.  If you want to know more, I’d be happy to answer your questions to the best of my abilities!  Good luck and have fun!

Your Friend, Toshi

 

 

 

 

Splendid work on the Mossie. I have seen those Create FX washes before but so much now. Last I looked, Hobby Lobby and/or Michael’s had them in their stock. 

  • Member since
    December, 2018
Posted by Tosh on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 5:45 PM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

 

 
Tosh

Here’s what I used on my Tamiya 1/32 Mosquito.  My build is not perfect by any means, but I was very happy with the results and so was FSM Digital Gallery.  It is in the Digital Gallery of 2018.  Go ahead and take a look.

I used what snapdragonxxx recommended in that it was Vallejo Colors shot freehand with a Iwata Eclipse HP-CS.  Then I used the Testors Natural Enamel Stain and AB with a NEO by Iwata.  If you want to know more, I’d be happy to answer your questions to the best of my abilities!  Good luck and have fun!

Your Friend, Toshi

 

 

 

 

 

 

Splendid work on the Mossie. I have seen those Create FX washes before but so much now. Last I looked, Hobby Lobby and/or Michael’s had them in their stock. 

 

Thank you sir!  I tried my best. You are correct, the create FX washes were picked up at Michael’s.  They are very popular with hobbyist as I see their stock run out quickly.

Your Friend, Toshi

Reside in Streetsboro, Ohio

At work with my grandson Ezra, building a Bandai 1/144 X-Wing Starfighter and a Y-Wing Starfighter.

 

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Hatboro, PA
Posted by Justinryan215 on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 6:18 PM

first off, Toshi, that Massie is gorgeous!  I can only hope that mine comes out half as beautiful! 

 

As for the "color accuracy " conversation, some of you may be trying to achieve some special level of perfect accuracy, but if a company sells me colors that match in name, and look close....it's for me!   Besides, there are so many different variables, including number of coats of paint (coverage), weathering (color changing through filters and washes), and then light color and quality during photography that can affect this perceived "perfection".

 

I appreciate all the feedback from you guys, and I will add photos as I proceed towards finishing this thing.  I can only hope I can honor my grandmother in the end!

 

Right now, the Mossie sits in black primer, waiting for me to have a little time to begin the camo...

"...failure to do anything because someone else can do better makes us rather dull and lazy..."

Mortal as I am,I know that I am born for a day.  But when I follow at my pleasure the serried multitude of the stars in their circular course, my feet no longer touch the Earth...

 

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 6:25 PM

Just a note, and yes nice wooden airplane there Toshi.

When freehanding the camo, the area of fuzziness on RAF aircraft is about 1" wide in real life. From any distance away it should look pretty hard edged.

  • Member since
    December, 2018
Posted by Tosh on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 10:49 PM

GMorrison

Just a note, and yes nice wooden airplane there Toshi.

When freehanding the camo, the area of fuzziness on RAF aircraft is about 1" wide in real life. From any distance away it should look pretty hard edged.

 

Thank you sir,  Your kind words are much appreciated!

Your Friend, Toshi

Reside in Streetsboro, Ohio

At work with my grandson Ezra, building a Bandai 1/144 X-Wing Starfighter and a Y-Wing Starfighter.

 

  • Member since
    November, 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Wednesday, May 01, 2019 8:47 AM

Justinryan215

 

As for the "color accuracy " conversation, some of you may be trying to achieve some special level of perfect accuracy, but if a company sells me colors that match in name, and look close....it's for me!   Besides, there are so many different variables, including number of coats of paint (coverage), weathering (color changing through filters and washes), and then light color and quality during photography that can affect this perceived "perfection".

 

So true!

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    January, 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Wednesday, May 01, 2019 4:21 PM

Justinryan215

 As for the "color accuracy " conversation, some of you may be trying to achieve some special level of perfect accuracy, but if a company sells me colors that match in name, and look close....it's for me!   Besides, there are so many different variables, including number of coats of paint (coverage), weathering (color changing through filters and washes), and then light color and quality during photography that can affect this perceived "perfection". 

h

Well said! 

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, May 01, 2019 4:31 PM

Justinryan215

As for the "color accuracy " conversation, some of you may be trying to achieve some special level of perfect accuracy, but if a company sells me colors that match in name, and look close....it's for me!   Besides, there are so many different variables, including number of coats of paint (coverage), weathering (color changing through filters and washes), and then light color and quality during photography that can affect this perceived "perfection".

It's important not to confuse "accuracy" with "authenticity", or to put it another way; there's the math and then there's the real life thing.

There is a range to any color of paint when applied in so much quantity, at so many factories, etc. But spreaking from experience, the range of those "in the can" aren't as wide as those sold "in the jar".

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, May 01, 2019 6:18 PM

Going back to my time in the service, I can tell you that due to multiple factors, there can be a wide variety in the same “exact” color on equipment. “Close enough for government work” took on a whole new meaning in that situation. With uniform colors, all made to military specifications and dyed or camouflage printed using the same specified colors, even when brand new, there was a spectrum of the color shade to be seen. 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Hatboro, PA
Posted by Justinryan215 on Sunday, May 05, 2019 11:54 AM

I've been working on the camouflage for the old Mossie...it's getting the ocean grey and dark green over medium sea grey scheme

I'm giving it the black basing technique, as I really like how it gives some variation to the paint.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right now, I am spraying a coat or two of the world famous (whatever it's called this week) acrylic floor shine liquid.

 

I will continue to post progress pics as I build!

 

"...failure to do anything because someone else can do better makes us rather dull and lazy..."

Mortal as I am,I know that I am born for a day.  But when I follow at my pleasure the serried multitude of the stars in their circular course, my feet no longer touch the Earth...

 

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, May 05, 2019 1:27 PM

That really looks great.

If I may, here's a trick I like.

Just like you did photocopying the camo as a pattern, do the same with the roundrels. Make tape masks just a bit smaller and apply over a light colored primer. or even the first coat of color. Leave on until you are finished painting. RAF wartime roundrels being what they are- dark over dark, it's probably not necessary to try this, but it helps to brighten up the marking a little and also have the demarkation lines not show through.

Excellent model so far.

  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Sunday, May 05, 2019 4:04 PM

I am responding to Black Sheep's request although really it is the wrong forum and this will be a two post job.

First of all I own some 80 German WWII vehicles including Panther, Tiger I, Tiger II, Jagdpanther, softskins etc. Most of these are awaiting restoration to full operational status.

This means that we have to go back in time to the original chipsets and colours used As these vehicles have spent the majority of their time under the water and in thick mud then the paint has not had the chance to age in any way which means that correct paint samples can be collected from each vehicle and sent away for colour and other analasys etc.

Once this has been done we can then compare them to actual chipset samples held in official German archives. During one session we came across a letter to all the paint companies (a list of the companies too) from OKW (German High Command) Thanking them for keeping all the colours manufactured with a 10% tolorance of the chipset colour. This is remarkable considering they were being bombed by the RAF at night and the USAAF by day which caused total disruption!

I contacted a paint company who is still trading and was on the list and asked if it would be possible to have access to their archives and gave the reason that were were searching for a provider that could make original versions of RAL 7028 as that actually changed colour 4 times in the war, not shade wise, but ACTUAL colour. 

On a visit to the factory and while in their archives we produced our actual samples from the vehicle and was able to match them to their own production samples which amazed the Managing Director who began to get very interested in what we do.

We now have a conract with them to provide us with modern remake of the authentic paints. We can't have lead in them amymore etc, so they provide us with industrial acrylic paints which I can use in my airbrush!

The photo above is the original paints from the company that we put on our vehicles.

The top row from left is RAL 6003 Green and the rest on that row is Afrika Korps colours.

The bottom row from left is RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb in order of usage. THe first on the left is Dunkelgelm Nach Muster (Dark Yellow After Pattern). This was only used from February to August 1943 during the Kursk offensive (Operation Citadel). RAL 7028 was the number that OKW had applied to the RAL people but after feedback and complaints from soldiers at the front what actually went in to the RAL catalalogue as 7028 was the colour 2nd from left!

The next colour third from left came into use in May 1944 and was seen as the base coat of new vehicles etc in the D-Day landings and the last one (4th from left) was trialed during Operation Panzerfaust in Budapest by Tiger II tanks from the 503rd Heavy tank Batallion and came into useage Christmas 1944 /January 1945 when the base coat became RAL6003 Green.

I will produce chipsets of AK's Real Colour set of RAL 7028 and you can see how much difference there is between reality and fiction or lack of research.

  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Monday, May 06, 2019 2:14 PM

Here we go with the differences between correct and real colours RAL 7028

Picture 1 Dunkelgelb Nach Muster

Picture 2 RAL 7028 as entered in catalogue August 1943

Picture 3 RAL 7028 Variant 1 May 1944

Picture 4 RAL 7028 Variant II - Final colour Christmas1944 / January 1945

 

THIS is why I don't trust AK or MIG to get right colours as they subscribe to scale colour correction or get colour information from items that have been subjected to may years of sun and weather plus corrosion etc instead of going into archives and reading plus talking to actual owners of original equipment. I only go into their paints when I have no alternative. AK Xtreme metals are the only metals outside Vallejo Metal colour that I do use on a regular basis and is on my shelves.

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, May 06, 2019 2:31 PM

To my eye... on this screen... version 1 looks like a great match, and 2,3, & 4 will look close enough over a black base. All look like acceptable fades of the original chip that you’ve posted, even if not over a black base. Not to mention that washes, weathering, etc., if you partake in such techniques, will make the final product way different from the original application. 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

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