OH DEAR....

Geez, DEAKON...See what you started!? Welcome to the U of FSM. I have long thought that PC had gone too far when it was labeled PC, but then there is always someone who gets their nose bent out of joint by something. No, like most modelers who look to recreate historical items, I don't think that by puting a swastika on an aircraft that I am supporting, nor promoting Naziism. The original aircraft had it, so the model will have it. As djmodels1999 said about the Hinomarus, we can still buy them. The Japanese were no less ruthless in some of their campaigns. I share your frustration.

A friend of mine who's into some wierd occult stuff (don't ask,he scares the bejesus outta me!) insists that the swastika was originally a very powerful pagan symbol used by various druidic cultures since time long past,and was then 'appropriated' by more modern religions. But then he does say that about a lot of stuff....!!:-) Sadly I am going to fall well short of the required 2000 words,dedicated history buff that I am my knowledge of the use of ancient symbols is not large,though it has been increased by this fascinating thread! More like these please!! :-)

g/day blue..... to right mate i get my F.S.M reserved special like at the local newsie.. dont know where i would be without it..
and you are right m8 it's so refreshing to have some "intelligent" input on a subject which to some can provoke outrage and fellings of real hostility,
i'm glad my innocent little post / inquiery ,generated so much positive response,

You know...My father was in WWII as an American Infantry Soilder. My mother was a teenager in Germany (she being German) during the heat of WWII. My Grandfather on my mothers side was in the Waffen SS Panzer Division and was Captured in Russia one lonely cold winter. What gives? Who gives a crap about the Swaztika on a model? It is a old roman Ruin if I am not mistaken anyway. Why do we hide from the aspects of History that make us feel ackward.

The people that are insulted by a symbol of a long past war should go worry about better things. Last I checked Hitler was dead still, and Germany makes great beer!

My mother was never that silly...never did she cut the tail fin off my model planes because the sight of the evil "Hacken Kreuz" made her all dirty feeling or something like that.

GROW UP!

DEAKON,

This is normal, happens all the time! It's inevitable when you get a buncha folks in one place who are interested enough to look beyond the surface, so to speak.

There's a good bunch of people here. We have alotta knowledgeable guys contributing to the forum (covering a broad spectrum of subject matter) and then we have a few know-it-alls. Like ME!

Fade to Black...

Deakon,
If you don't subscribe to FSM, then you're just plain missing out on a good thing.
In regards to the forum, see what you get when you ask? All you gotta do is ask.......and you shall receive. In abundance. This is probably the largest, thought provoking set of postings I've seen - It's worth it to come in and have a look around, isn't it?
Cheers,
LeeTree

This type of mentality would appear to stem from a "zero-tolerance" attitude adopted by certain officials, which results in scenarios such as the school boy who was expelled from school because he drew a picture of a gun, and the airport security guard who confiscated the G.I. Joe M-16 included with the action figure that the mother had purchased for her son ("anything that looks like a gun..."). Common sense needs to be addressed here, IMHO. The rules for "displaying a swastika" were obviously intended to discourage public display of flags, banners, and similar political embellishments. Who is acting like a Nazi NOW?

FITTER

WoW i open a thread to moan about the lack of hakenkreuz on a decal sheet, and i find an in depth discussion on the history and implementations of them throughout the known history of man!! .. A friend told me once that if i was looking for a modelling magazine i should check out F.S.M as it would be an education in how to do models properly......and it was.and still is...
i didn't think when i joined F.S.M online .. that i would end up studying for a masters in history..[hehehehehehe] as i left school eons ago..
looks like this place is an education within itself , how refreshing......anyway i digress...i have since found and ordered several aftermarket decal sheets, with all the twisted crosses i could wish for , and in several scales just to make sure i dont run out....thank you all who furnished me with links to sites of suppliers.. may the sun light up your lives..the rest of you..i want a full synopsis on the utilisation and implementation of the swastika throughout history..in no less than two thousand words on my desk by 9:am tommorow.....oh and i like red apples.....

www.hannants.co.uk make and sell their own in most common scales. Cheap and easy. No trolling required :D

This is one of a countless websites that deal with the subject. It seems that it is still actively used in bhuddist and hindi cultures.

http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa120699a.htm

I like that little bit of irony you brought up DJ, remember the 80's, how popular the rising sun flag was in pop culture (and still is). Seems no one has a problem with that showing up everywhere. Except maybe if you lived in Nanking or served on Bataan, Wake or Corrigedor.
Stalin murdered how many more than Adolf yet we view the red star and cycal and hammer as little more than a political symbol?

Symbols have meaning only if we attach meaning to them and perpetuate the mythos surrounding them.

Mike

If I'm not mistaken, Carl Sagan in his book Comet explained that the svastika is a representation of a comet, viewed face-on. I actually noticed on a box cover, very recently (Roden???), that a Finnish svastika had been 'modified' so that it looked like a square made up of four squares, if you know what I mean... I think this is very stupid and even shortsighted. Why are we able to purchase kits with Hinomarus, then? Blanking out a single part of the history of humanity is not very useful nor helpful. Maybe we should all write to the German government and complain...?

The swastika shows up in almost every continent and every culture. Even those isolated from one another. If it were a circle or simple geometric shape it would be one thing, but its pretty complex as geometric gylphs go so it makes you wonder... Greeks, Hindus, Ethiopians, American Indians, Celts, Vikings, Picts, Aztecs, all have this shape incorporated into design work.

It was that whole teutonic mojo thing he was on. Swastika, viking runes of power for the SS, Wagner. Teach one crazy facist about viking stuff ...Ruined it for everyone...

Somewhere I have a photo from a magazine of an American Expeditionary Force pilot, sporting a swastika on the tale of his plane during WWI.

Mike

Wow... wow. Is society really that bankrupt that we aren't even allowed to SEE something that represents the past? I don't know why I'm so shocked by this. I shouldn't be.

This is fun, check it out:
http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html

A quick search at Squadron turns up many sheets with Swastikas you can order:
http://www.squadron.com/SearchResults.asp?ScaleList=everything&TypeList=everything&ManuList=everything&Key=Swastika&Submit=Go

i think it originates from INDIA a hindu sun symbol or some such...

LMAO

DEAKON,

Have a malt whiskey, that'll calm you down.

-zeb-,

I know what you mean about the Finnish markings. Thank goodness for Aeromaster and the others! And don't worry, my friend. Your English is excellent. Very good, better than my Finnish!

For those who don't know, the swastika's origins lay in a good luck symbol used by several civilizations for generations before that Austrian Corporal forever changed it's popular meaning. I forget where it originated, but look into a little Native American Indian history and you'll find that the swastika turns up here and there.

Fade to Black...

I do understand why they don't put the swastikas in the decal sheets, but what I cannot is that they refuse to print the Finnish Airforces' luck-bringing mark, which is a similar shape to the swastika, but the "blades" point clockwise instead of counter-clockwise. The main cross is also horizontally aligned, the figure is blue and the background is a white square.

With all these differences they still won't print the Finnish marks like they're supposed and we have to buy our accurate decals from aftermarket, too.

I'm sorry for any inconvenience, English is not my mother tongue.

Zeb

thanks for the input guys..i get the picture......sheesh..
to blackwolf.......my mind is so boggled after trolling the web ,for decals. i think i gotta lie down for an hour.......

In several European countries it's illegal to display the swastika in public, and many model manufacturers market their kits accordingly.

Most seem to simply omit swastikas from the box art either altogether or, as was more common in the recent past, they omitted them only on those kits marketed in Europe.

Some have even gone so far as to omit swastikas from the decal sheet, as well. The exact reasoning, to my knowledge, has never been revealed by those who have done so. But one can only deduce that it's as a result of the proliferation of PC BS so prevelant in today's world.

There are, indeed, many aftermarket sheets available with swastikas; as most aftermarket companies are dedicated to providing historically accurate markings for models and are less concerned with offending those who cannot bear to face the fact that evil has existed and continues to exist in this world.

Model manufacturers give in to the PC BS because thay have a broad target audience, so to speak. Therefore, if putting swastikas on or in their model boxes causes a decline in sales, then they will not do so.

Little Johnnie who wants to build a model airplane for fun and then blow it up on the 4th isn't concerned with historically accurate markings. And if Johhnie's parents have an aversion to the swastika (to which they have a perfect right) then they may not buy a model kit with a swastika on it.

The "hardcore" modeler, on the other hand, usually is interested in historically accurate markings; and further more is usually interested in a broad spectrum of subject matter.

Enter the aftermarket decal companies. They exist solely to satisfy the tastes and wants of the "hardcore" modeler. It's because most kit decals have been and continue to be lacking in one way or another (or many!) that the aftermarket companies thrive. And one of the most recent ways in which kit sheets are lacking is the omission of swastikas.

Here's a short list of aftermarket decal companies:

Aeromaster - Eagle Strike - Experten - EagleCals - Cutting Edge - Three Guys Replicas - Third Group - TwoBobs - Yellowhammer - Albatros and good 'ole Microscale, now known as Superscale. There are MANY others as well.

If you've been away from the hobby for awhile, it'll boggle your mind how much stuff is out there for the modeler these days.

Fade to Black...

Hey
The reason(s) some kits have them and some don't is marketing and the global economy. Some places, like Germany , it is illegal to display the Swastika
others, like USA, it merely offends a group or groups who want to ignore history.
Since Tamiya doesn't (to my knowledge) market aggresivly in Europe, they go
for history. Since Revell(Germany) markets primarily in europe they go for
abiding by the law.(Can't really fault them for that!)
Good Hunting,
rdxpress

It is illegal to display ANYTHING with the swastika in Germany, I don't know about other countries.

Try a contact at
http://www.webspace.com.br/fcm/fcm.htm

Here in Brazil, the decal sheets with swasticas isn´t forbidden...I´ll try to find an address for you...take it easy man...

i just finished a Tamiya 1:48 FW 190, and the decal sheet had the swastika on it. There were none on the box art nor the instructions.

Svastikas disappeared from decal sheets back in the early '80s, Deakon... Nowadays, one can find items like that on 'aftermarket' decal sheets.