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Paintmatching - a tough one

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Pominville, NY
Posted by BlackWolf3945 on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:13 PM
Well, that's a regular practice of mine, but the folks at Monogram are, a bit, shall we say... wacky? At least the ones I've come into contact with. LOL

Having talked to them at several shows and via phone, I cringe at the thought. Perhaps I'll just have to suck it up, dial the phone and grin and bear it! Where's that straitjacket... Tongue [:P]

Actually, they're good folks. Just a bit un-nerving.


Fade to Black...
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Sunny Florida
Posted by renarts on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 6:48 PM
Blackwolf,

You can write to the publisher and request copies of the photos, or have them put you in touch with the author who can either send you copies or source you. It sometimes take persistence but it can pay off big.

Mike
Mike "Imagination is the dye that colors our lives" Marcus Aurellius A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Pominville, NY
Posted by BlackWolf3945 on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 6:32 PM
Winglebeast,

I have that effect on people!

Schmeter pit,

Dang. Busted laptop, huh? Okay, NP, I'm sure I'll sconge a copy from somewhere! And any photo would be of use to me, original or not. I'm just an image fiend!

And you're one of those little scale (72nd) guys, huh? THAT explains everything! Tongue [:P] (jk) I've seen the Jap a/c interiors book, nice stuff, but I'll have to settle for the German counterpart. I wish I had more Monogram books, matter of fact the only other I have is the one about Italian 109's.

Anyhoo, thanks for a good "argument", they're always alotta fun.


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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 4:08 PM
lol well put it this way you dont need to be right on becouse out of the factory shades where a little diffrent from plane to plane just do the best you can.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 11:08 AM
winglebeast starts crying:: "all i wanted to do was to build a model!" ::runs away sobbing
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:49 AM
Blackwolfscd -

Sorry, I do not have the capability to send these photos. All I have is someone's old cast-off lap top with a broken disc drive.Disapprove [V] Even if I could, I doubt that they would be of any use. You would need the original transparencies. Even then, they might not be of any use. I used to send my slides to Kodak in Rochester, N. Y. for printing and whenever a print came back that I didn't like, I would send it back. They would reprint it by hand and return it at no charge. The first time that I noticed the blue/green problem, I returned it for color correction. They sent me a letter stating that the problem was in the original slide and that they could fix the green, but everything else would look wrong.Dead [xx(]

As far as the Sand 26 - This color is very orangey. There is no exact FS595 match. The closest (matched in open shade daylight) is FS 21433, but should be a shade darker. This looks perfect for 1/72 scale color. I'm one of those.Wink [;)]

If you get another chance to pick up any of the Monogram Air Force or Navy & Marine color guides, jump at it! Several months ago I received their Japanese Aircraft Interiors 1940-1945. EXCELLENT!Tongue [:P]

Pete
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Pominville, NY
Posted by BlackWolf3945 on Monday, June 9, 2003 5:34 PM
Yeah, the arguments will never cease! (This thread being a case in point! Tongue [:P])

You said never to believe a color photo, which I also agree with to a point. Especially in this case, as I mentioned in that first post of mine, because it's an old Kodachrome transparency. Also, take into account printing etc... Too many variables.

And those dang Yellowjacket Mustangs, how anyone ever saw blue in there, I dunno. I know there's a trace of blue, more like a tint, but BLUE? LOL That one always makes me laugh.

I myself haven't used Kodachrome, my Dad used to shoot alot of that in his early days. Then when he went semi-professional he also switched to Agfa. I seem to recall him muttering about the Kodachrome stuff and merging colors and all that. But my memory of all that is bad, I was a bit young when that was going on!

Anyhoo, I suppose that it depends who's research one chooses to believe. I know of the changes that can occur in a Kodachrome slide not only over time, but from the moment of exposure to processing. I still, personally, am convinced that the yellow color is not sand, but I'm stubborn! Tongue [:P]

Is there anyway you can scan those images you mentioned? I'd LOVE to see them. Cuz if I am wrong about the color, I'd like to see it with my own eyes. Not that I doubt what you say, I'm just one of those guys who has to see it and also believes in letting the individual observe, interpret and conclude for himself. And unfortunately, I don't have that book. I passed it up at a regional once, the guy only wanted $20. I could kick myself...

Anyway, if you can somehow send me a scan of those photos and/or any other relevant parts of that book, I'd be indebted to you!


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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, June 9, 2003 2:19 PM
Blackwolfscd -

If you have a copy of the book that I quoted from, see color photos on pages 78, and 205-205. I quote Mr Archer, "Unfortunately, the orange color was, in reality, color No. 26 Sand, but through misinterpretation of old color photography, the error has persisted."

As far as the 3-color vs. 4-color schemes, I don't know. There does, however, appear to be enough area covered by the darkest shade to incorporate both the Dark Olive Drab and Dark Blue. I also recall when I was doing a lot of color photography using the old Kodachrome (ASA 10), that I had to switch to Agfachrome because, unless the lighting was perfect, the Kodachrome made all of the dark greens and dark blues come out looking the same - dark bluish green. Never believe color photos. How about those P-51 Mustangs that look blue in the color photo, but proven to be actually painted olive?

I also tend to go with the latest info - the Monogram color guide 1995 rather than the Air Force Colors by Dana Bell, 1979.

I'm sure arguments concerning these colors will go on forever, unless new info turns up somewhere in the deep, dark archives.

Pete

Pete

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Pominville, NY
Posted by BlackWolf3945 on Sunday, June 8, 2003 3:18 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by schmeter pit

The two squadron commanders' stripes are only described as being yellow and dark green.Question [?]


The commanders stripes are yellow where they pass over the green camo color and green where they pass over the yellow/orange color.

Other than the possibility that the yellow part of the command stripes are in the regular yellow paint as on bare metal aircraft, (and the obvious colors of the other markings) there are only three colors on this aircraft.

White
Dark Green
Yellowish Orange

Careful interpretation of that color shot (and others like it) can lead only to the conclusion that these were White 25, Dark Green 30 and one of the six mystery colors. (#s 35-40) That yellowish orange color does not match any of the known colors (#s 25-34) and it certainly is not Sand 26.

Wingle drew the right conclusion when he stated that he's probably going to have to mix some paint.


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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 8, 2003 2:14 PM
Okay guys, let's make it simple.Wink [;)]

According to "The Official Monogram U.S. Army Air Service & Air Corps Aircraft Color Guide", Vol. 1, 1908-1941, by Robert D. Archer, this aircraft was painted in the experimental Class II ground camouflage scheme. This consisted of the following colors:

White 25
Sand 26
Dark blue 29
Dark olive drab 31

Except for the white, there are large chips of these colors in the rear of this volume. The two squadron commanders' stripes are only described as being yellow and dark green.Question [?]

I hope that this doesn't just add to the confusion! Clown [:o)]

Pete

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 8, 2003 11:40 AM
no brob guys ill definately give you guys a few photos, you helped me out a bunch but i think im going to finish my p-35 first but ill show you both of them

but in my opinion we should have this (or another) thread be a pemenant paint matching thread.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 7, 2003 10:11 PM
Nice subject!
Well, at least you don't have to worry about having too bad of color authenticity, no one seems to have a good color phot of your plane!
Go with what looks good, and have fun! That's the most important part of modeling!
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Pominville, NY
Posted by BlackWolf3945 on Saturday, June 7, 2003 9:33 PM
Hehe, yeah, you did pick a humdinger. But it shows that you have good taste!

Anyhoo, I'd like to see it when it's done. Good luck!


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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 7, 2003 3:02 PM
well blackwolfscd...

i just went to my hobbystore picked up an airplane magazine that had p-36 in it by chance and found out that they were brand new colors, the 1PG did it to show off at the races due to the wargames never took place. i guess im gonna have to guess & mix to the best of my ability. thanks for trying everyone..

PS. boy i picked a doozie
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Pominville, NY
Posted by BlackWolf3945 on Friday, June 6, 2003 7:12 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by WingleBeast

we know the army is not going to produce a whole new paint color just for the wargames and are pobably going to use there same old colors.


On the contrary, that's exactly what they did. While they had existing colors that were also used, different colors were continually being tried. And these colors were, almost without exception, temporary water-soluble paints.

Colors for use as camouflage were continually being developed and evaluated. The War Games were maneuvers not only to evaluate the readiness of the military, but also served the purpose of testing new tactics and new methods of concealment, ie; camouflage.

So while it's true that not all camouflage colors were developed specifically for War Games, it is true that the "art" of camouflage as applied by the USAAC was constanly evolving in the 1930's.

The GHQAF Maneuvers of 1938 provided not only the first large scale test of water soluble (read temporary) paint on natural metal aircraft, but also marked the first known instance of paints being documented by name and number. The list of colors and their numbers kept by the painting team indicated a previously unknown level of standardization by Materiel Command.

This is a list of some of the colors: (taken from Air Force Colors Vol.1 1926-1942 by Dana Bell)

25 White
26 Sand
27 Light Blue
28 Sea Green
29 Dark Blue
30 Dark Green
31 Dark Olive Drab
32 Neutral Gray
33 Black
34 Rust Brown

This is a quote from the same book by Mr.Bell:

"Color numbers 35 through 40 are an unsolved mystery at the time of this writing. The numbers were reserved with QM Corps in January 1939 for paints alleged to be under development, but further documentation has not been found. Even the color names are unknown. The possibility of six unknown colors popping up without notice makes interpretation of any black and white photos in this era a trifle risky. The orange used by the 27th PS is a prime example, and almost certainly one of the missing six."

This, to me, explains why you can't find some or many of these colors in any range of hobby paints today. All the colors in question were temporary water-soluble paints and were not "standard" USAAC camouflage colors. Remember, the army did not permanently (or temporarily) camouflage their aircraft on a regular basis before the nation's entry into WWII.

Also, simply as a point of interest, the colors on these P-36's of the 27th PG have been alleged to have been used in the 1939 War Games, as I mentioned in my last post. I also mentioned the controversy surrounding that common belief.

They were, in fact, painted especially for the 1939 National Air Races in Cleveland, Ohio. They never saw use in any War Games or maneuvers. Also, no two planes were painted alike. Some used as little as 2 or 3 colors with some using as many as 7!

You asked about the diagram. The main references I used for this and my last post were several works by Dana Bell. One was the book I mentioned earlier and the rest were several magazine articles he had written. This particular diagram came from an article in an old IPMS magazine. I don't have the original anymore, I zoxed what I wanted and sold all my IPMS rags. Several of the photos came from misc books.


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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, June 6, 2003 10:05 AM
i love the p-35 and p-36 of the first fighter group i live in michigan near Selfridge Field, befor the war they consisted of the 17th, 27th, and 94th pursuit squadron. then when the japeneese attacked the philippines, the 17th were made POW's or escaped to austrailia, and forced to no longer exist. then the 1st PG created or made (im not sure what) the 71st PS and headed over to north afrika. i just wish i had the patience to build one aircraft from each of the three original squads!
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, June 6, 2003 10:01 AM
yes thats true but lets not make this too difficult...

we know the army is not going to produce a whole new paint color just for the wargames and are pobably going to use there same old colors. (i like testors because they make the colors in army FS and later WWII ANA) so i pursume the white = sand (ANA 616) and the green = olive drab (ANA 613 or FS 34087 ive also seen FS 46088) or Medium Green (FS 34102 or ANA 612) but there is nothing in my reference book that has the oarnge/yellow look except maybe insignia yellow but that seems to bright

PS where did you get the camo diagram, blackwolfscd?
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: United Kingdom / Belgium
Posted by djmodels1999 on Friday, June 6, 2003 6:27 AM
Glad you could shed some light on this, Blackwolf...
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Pominville, NY
Posted by BlackWolf3945 on Friday, June 6, 2003 4:46 AM
It looks like the site has had some changes made and photos are automatically being re-sized, possibly to reduce page-load times. Also, some folks have been posting HUGE photos (I've tried to keep mine so that they fit the screen fairly well). This could be another reason for the auto-resizing.

Anyhoo, if you save these photos to your computer, they should be viewable as larger images.


Fade to Black...
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Pominville, NY
Posted by BlackWolf3945 on Friday, June 6, 2003 4:40 AM
I've always loved these birds...

The P-36 you want to build was from the 27th Pursuit Squadron which was based at Selfridge Field, Michigan. In 1939 the unit's aircraft were camouflaged, ostensibly, for the 1939 War Games. There are conflicting references stating that they didn't take part in the War Games while carrying these schemes, but that's neither here nor there at the moment...

The particular aircraft that's in that picture you found is a restored aircraft from the USAF Museum at Wright Patt. AFB in Dayton, Ohio. It's painted to represent the ship flown by the 27th PS Commanding Officer. It looks like it was scanned from one of the Museum's postcards (I have the very one myself) which were notoriously badly printed. Colors were poorly reproduced, hence that "retouched" look as described by DJ.

I've included several shots of the original aircraft below.











Below is a diagram showing the scheme as applied to this aircraft.



This is an original color shot from 1939. As you can see, there are three different colors used, the "yellow" actually being an orange color. The command stripes are said to be yellow, the squadron color. But it's hard to tell if this is actually the case. The only clue that this might be so is that the stripes exhibit consistent coverage, whereas the orange looks like it was slopped on and is very inconsistent.



Don't rely on this color photo to give you an EXACT color match, though. Factors such as printing ink used, printing conditions, paper type and the fact that this was printed from a 50+ year-old Kodachrome slide will all serve to change the appearance of the colors in the image. Nevertheless, this is still your best reference as to what the actual colors were.


Hope this was of help!


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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: United Kingdom / Belgium
Posted by djmodels1999 on Friday, June 6, 2003 2:28 AM
Mmmm... Paint matching is a very difficult science you know... I'm never too worried about getting an exact match. Paints can change so much, according to who manufactured them (and how they did), according to where and when and how they were applied, how old the paints were, how old the painted job is, and depending on various other conditions such as weather, maintenance and all that...

From that picture, I'd say that the 'yellow' looks like Humbrol's old 'Zinc Chromate' and the green like Humbrol's 86 green... That sand is very light and looks as a lighter Humbrol 103 sand. But consider that hues showing on a picture can also be wrong comparing to what was on the real aircraft... Different photo paper, different camera equipment, different light conditions, different processing conditions, and 'retouching' by photo artists can also give lots of different looks. For instance, that blue sky in that picture looks very fake to me... Who can say whether the shades of green and sans have not been retouched too?

Not much help, I'm afraid, but that's all I can come up with!
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 5, 2003 10:38 PM
there is the picture of the deasert sand and spinach

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/early_years/p36.jpg
  • Member since
    November 2005
Paintmatching - a tough one
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 5, 2003 8:14 PM
i am building a Academy p-36 (no one ever gives academy credit for there excellent quality models) and i want to paint it in the original deasert sand and spinach. It appears to be olive drab (or forest green), sand, and some yellowish color i cant figure it out? i have to go but i will get you the website in another post
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