B-17F in Luftwaffe markings?

Hi Blackwolf. i got the info from the book SPITFIRE by Alfred Price it has a shot of a spit opperated by this unit with a P38 in the background that (so i am told)was probably taken at reichtlin? not sure of the spelling on that one but i hope you know where i mean cheers....Greg

QUOTE: The book I read it in was (I think) "Bloody Skies" by Melvin McGuire, B-17 waist gunner from Texas. He may have been recounting a story from a sister Sqdn. and I got it mixed up.

Bloody Skies was the book and it was a B-17 moving into a B-24 sqdn.
Mr.McGuire was from New Mexico not Texas, my apologies.
These groups were referred to as the "Rosarius travelling circus".

Wandering off into the realms of fiction... The novel was KG 200, by John Clive (Brit actor) & someone else. It involved a a group of B-17's being used to bomb the Houses of Parliament. I think it also mentions Native American radio operators being used to counter the Germans.
There are pictures around somewhere of a Wellington in German markings (with a yellow underside) & some quite common ones of a Stirling with the nose covered in canvas to cover damage, in the same markings.
The Japanese aircraft were rebuilt in Darwin I think. There was an article in Aeroplane monthly a few months back, then someone sent in some pictures they'd taken at the time. A Hangar full of bits & pieces, they used three or so aircraft to build one good one. I think a couple went off to the States. And there are good shots of a 'Tony' being flown over the town.
Strangers in a strange land Vol 2 is out (SQS 6056) I've got a copy on order from Hannants in the UK.
All the best
Pete

Are you thinking of 2.Staffel Versuchsverband Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe, gregers? The Versuchsverband was a special unit which performed unique missions. 1.Staffel conducted long-range recon missions and 3.Staffel conducted test and experimental flights with captured allied aircraft.

2.Staffel, also known as Beute -Zirkus Rosarious was responsible for conducting training flights with captured aircraft in conjunction with regular Luftwaffe units. It was named Beute-Zirkus Rosarius (Rosarious' Flying Circus) after 2.Staffel's commander, Ted Rosarious.

The Zirkus operated in much the same way as did the USN TOPGUN and USAF Red Flag schools; there was a period of classroom instruction concentrating on the strengths and weaknesses of all aircraft involved, then an inspection of the captured aircraft and, finally, a series of mock dogfights.

The captured aircraft were operated with all guns and ammunition installed (most likely deactivated for safety) and with varying fuel loads to provide as much realism as possible.

I have to dig out a P-51D that I built sometime back; she carries the markings as worn by the Zirkus, a nice flashy contrast of green up top and bright yellow on the bottom.


Fade to Black...

just thought i would throw my two pence/cents worth in. There was another German unit that operated captured allied aircraft, it was known as the "sonderstaffel wonderzirkus" and its purpose was to fly demonstrations of captured aircraft to Luftwaffe units

Another practice by the USAAF besides passwords was the marking of the day. Aircraft detailed to participate in a certain day's operations and/or area of operations had to carry a certain marking as a means of ID for security purposes. This marking was changed for almost every operation.

There are similar stories to those mentioned above regarding unknown aircraft, not carrying the MOTD, trying to join formations. Really interesting stuff if you get into it and do some digging. All this is very inspirational, whether it ultimately translates to a built model or not!


Fade to Black...

QUOTE: I'd love to know what the Germans' reply was the first time they were asked what the password was!

A long burst and a prayer?

The book I read it in was (I think) "Bloody Skies" by Melvin McGuire, B-17 waist gunner from Texas. He may have been recounting a story from a sister Sqdn. and I got it mixed up.

QUOTE: Originally posted by claymore68 I read an account of a captured B-17 with American markings and crewed by Germans that pretended to be a straggler and was accepted into a squadron that was straggling. It managed to shoot down a couple before it was dispatched.

I know that happenned with B-24s. They eventually gave passwords for each mission, and if someone tried to enter the formation, they would have to give the password. Since the password was never transmitted via radio, the Germans could not figure out the password unless they had spies in those particular airbases.

I'd love to know what the Germans' reply was the first time they were asked what the password was!

Hiya, J-Hulk! There was actually a fairly decent novel entitled "KG 200" written some time back, about the exploits of a group of Luftwaffe aircrew assigned to the unit. "Wulf Hound" went down on Dec. 20th, 1942 on a mission to Romilly-sur-Seine. The pilot was able to touch down in a French field virtually intact, giving the Germans their first complete B-17F."Wulf Hound" was attached to the 360thBS, 305thBG serial # 41-24585. Accounts of the fate of this plane are in Roger Freeman's books, Edward Jablonksi's book and in the afformentioned Squadron/Signal "Strangers..." Hope this is of some help. - Ed

The fist time I saw this or even learned about it was when I bought the "Warbird Modeling" mag. One of these days I'm going to have to get a B-17 kit and make it with those markings!


I couldn't even find my way back to "normal" with the Hubble!

Again you guys never cease to amaze me with the depth of your resources. Collectively, you make this site incredible for modelers of any talent. Thank you

I read an account of a captured B-17 with American markings and crewed by Germans that pretended to be a straggler and was accepted into a squadron that was straggling. It managed to shoot down a couple before it was dispatched.

Thanks for the info, guys!

And thanks for the pix, Blackwolf. I'll keep my eye out for that book.

I'm a bit of a Luftwaffe fan, but this is the first I've heard of KG 200. A whole new world unfolds!

Albertsponson, I've never heard of the Australians rebuilding Japanese aircraft, but I have seen some pix of maybe Zeroes or Raidens in New Zealand markings. And I think they may have been combat operative, not just testing.

Moonwoka, thanks for the links!

Hey Pix, how about a KG 200 B-17F and a 8th Air Force B-17G tangling over Berlin?

Reckon there probably weren't too many bomber-on-bomber dogfights, but a pic by Pix would be cool!

Hi, everybody

there is another one interesting source - http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/
The link "Beuteflugzeuge 1933-45 Homepage" contains information about a/c captured bu Luftwaffe, and the link "Captive Luftwaffe 1939-45" - about captured Luftwaffe a/c. Blackwolf, I believe You are familiar with this site

I've got loads of stuff on these somewhere, probably back home in the UK.
However, KG 200 also operated B-17G's too. There's another book;
KG 200 the true story, 1978, by P W Stahl, published by Motorbuch Verlag of Stutgart. It's an excellently written narative by one who was there, detailing how & where these aircraft were used. He didn't know of the infiltration's of US bomber group's so whether it actually happened is a good question. But given the state of things in the late war, and the secrecy in KG 200 it may have, I assume, Why else would the USAAF build the YB-40's?
I do have details here of a B-24H, used by KG 200. 41-28779 of the 389th bomb group. Crash landed near Stettin June 20th 1944. Used by KG 200 as KO+XA.
Destroyed by fire April 1945 after a noseleg collapse. pictures were published along with an article in Aeroplane monthly, November 1994.
The pictures also show 'Wulf Hund' wearing crosses, and another B-17.
This has been a bit of a pet subject for me for years, I've got lots of stuff on axis aircraft tested by the allies too (Did you know there was a repair organisation in Australia rebuilding Japanese aircraft?). I didn't know about that Squadron book, I'll have to see if I can get a copy, Thanks Pixilater!
Pete

Hulk,

Here's some images for 'ya:









These I found online, but I have more...

If you think you may have an interest in captured aircraft operated by the Germans, and you see this book anywhere, grab it! It's a great reference and decent reading:

(D'OH!!! I just noticed Pix's mention of this... oh well. Now you know what it looks like! LOL)



I guess I'll have to dig out my captured P-51 and post some photos...


Fade to Black...

It was KG 200 that operated captured allied aircraft. They were a covert operations group, and their operations were a closely guarded secret. The Squadron book "Strangers in a Strange Land" details their use of B-17s, B-24s, P-47s, P-38s, & P-51s, among others. VERY interesting stuff. The B-17s were used, in large part, for the transport of agents behind enemy lines. The Germans lacked suitable, long range, aircraft. These missions were generally carried out at night, but some USAAF crews reported being "shadowed" by american aircraft w/ swastikas. Poor fuel & maintenance was always a problem.