Jet Fuel

I knew a fellow a number of years ago who ran an AVGAS/regular unleaded in his motorbike.I don't remember what kind of bike it was for sure, either a Suzuki or Kawasaki. The fuel mix was about 30% AVGAS to 70 % unleaded and I think he also used a different type of oil too.

Ther are some jet engines out there you can run AVGAS thru and not have any problems. If you ever get around a tanker base (Forestry Service) that is operating either P2V's or buck 19's (C-119), the jet engines on those aircraft are plumbed directly into the main fuel system. Granted they are only used on take off and when making drop on a fire, but they still work on 100/130 and 115/145 grades AVGAS without any problems. Also Douglas built a twin engine jet night fighter for the airforce during the very early 50's and it operated full time on AVGAS(was even used in Korea). Sorry I can't remember the designation, just that it was a dumpy straight winged black thing.
On the use of AVGAS in cars, you have to know what to use. Quite a few years ago my boss ran 115/145 in his Corvette. Thing ran like hell but only took him 3 months to burn the valves out of it. I ran 100/130 AVGAS in a 57 Chevy pick up for years without any problems (I did add a pint of Marvel Mystery Oil to the fuel tank about every other fill up). I also know one fellow locally that has a high compression Porsche that will only run on AVGAS.

Also eats seals in the fuel system and destroys the pumps. That's why Darren's comments regarding logging times etc. Additives in avgas make it incompatible with turbine systems. I too have used avgas in my car when I have been caught short at the flying club, but not on a continuous basis as it is very expensive, so no harm came to the engine.

The only input I have is that I know you can run cars on AVGAS...but not too much. My father works on Mercedes Benz automobiles and we had a customer with a car who used AVGAS exculsivley for several years. Needless to say, the engine went to hell. We tore that engine down and I must say we've never seen a combustion chamber in a car engine that was that white and clean. Unfortunaly, it had also ate the exhuast valves too. A little too hot I think.
Dana

100LL (avgas) can be used in turbine engines, but only if it's an absolute emergency. Engine manufactures will spell out exactly how many total hours they can be run on avgas before requiring overhaul. The ones that I know of are only a few hours at the most, and it's cumulative over the entire life of the engine. They also provide formulas depending on if the fuel tanks are 100% full of avgas, or have a mixture of avgas and jet A. You are also required to make log book entries listing the exact times, dates, cycles etc...of such use.

On the other side of the equation, a piston engine can not run on jet fuel, not even for a few minutes. This could be very hazardous to ones health if ever attempted.

Darren

If leaded gas was ever burned in a Jet engine, it would eat up any titanium in the engine. Lead, heat and titanium do not get along very well. I discovered that the hard way. As a young airman I used a lead pencil to mark a loose rivet on the tail cone of a F-102A. After flight there was a large hole on the tail cone where I had used the pencil. I thought my supervisor was going to kill me.

That sound more like it. I think an engine would need at LEAST some Jack Daniels or Wild Turkey!

The cargo of beer probably had something to do with seeing the golden monkeys ...

I'm sure I saw something on TV years ago (US show with a flying boat, possibly a Goose or Widgeon, flying round some islands in the pacific, probably in WW2. something about golden monkeys in the title. I was about 6 so this may not be too reliable. in fact it may well be nonsense) where they ran out of fuel and emptied the cargo of beer into the tanks. think I'll be sticking to AVGAS

I've seen model engines rumming on sunflower oil as well. Have yet to try that in a PT-6 though ...
Bruce

Mr. Diesel first buit one to run on coal dust, it blew up ending that attempt and convincing him to try various oils.

True diesel engines were origionally designed to run on alternative fuels. Believe it or not, you can run one off of sunflower seed oil!

I heard there was one in Saudi Arabia that ran for 7 YEARS non-stop. when it was shut down for inspection it couldnt be restarted, sand had worn down the compressor blades so bad it couldn't regain compression.

My father told me they tested one at the power company with powdered coal. It worked.

Derek:
Amazing what those engines will run on ... absolute proof of the KISS principle if you ask me.
Bruce

In the Navy we used JP-4 (Jet B) and called it "Marine Diesel". We used it for the main propulsion (GE LM-2500 Gas Turbines) generators (Detroit/Allison V-16-471 diesels) and it went into the tanks for refuelling Helos. It was also used for oil fired boilers and Gas Turbine Generator Sets (Allison 501-K-17) where applicable.

I have spent a few years in the Canadian Arctic and can tell you that Jet B is hard to come by in most of the communities. A lot of operators will take diesel fuel or aviation kerosene and cut it with gasoline to keep it from freezing. It is colloquially known as 'Arctic Diesel' and is used in heavy equipment diesel engines as well as aircraft turbines. I've even seen this done with home heating oil.
You can tell if they've loaded arctic diesel if the turbine smokes more than usual. Other than that the engines run fine ...

Brit's just call it AVTUR ( Aviation/Turbine) as opposed to AVGAS for piston engines. Out here in Saudi we switched from JP4 to JP8 a few years ago with only minor adjustments to the engines (P&W turboprop)
A jet engine will just about run on anything though, as long as you can get it to ignite in the first place.
Pete

Hey drew if you still have that list could you post it.

not bad reasearch guys. the truth is out there or up there in this case. even as a military pilot, I learned a bit about the diffrent types of fuel. In canada, typical fuel is JP4 or JetB. We just never asked for anything else. Even in vancouver and Abbotsford, that was what I saw. neet to know that there is really only temp. and corrosion diffrences between them. I only got a long list of approved fuels and you wouldn't believe some of what you could dump into those tanks and then take-off.

Don't fly harder than you fight, you'll loose!
drew

I found this at: http://www.csgnetwork.com/jetfuel.html
*QUOTE*
AVIATION TURBINE FUEL (JET FUEL)

CIVIL JET FUELS

Aviation turbine fuels are used for powering jet and turbo-prop engined aircraft and are not to be confused with Avgas. Outside former communist areas, there are currently two main grades of turbine fuel in use in civil commercial aviation : Jet A-1 and Jet A, both are kerosine type fuels. There is another grade of jet fuel, Jet B which is a wide cut kerosine (a blend of gasoline and kerosine) but it is rarely used except in very cold climates.

JET A-1

Jet A-1 is a kerosine grade of fuel suitable for most turbine engined aircraft. It is produced to a stringent internationally agreed standard, has a flash point above 38°C (100°F) and a freeze point maximum of -47°C. It is widely available outside the U.S.A. Jet A-1 meets the requirements of British specification DEF STAN 91-91 (Jet A-1), (formerly DERD 2494 (AVTUR)), ASTM specification D1655 (Jet A-1) and IATA Guidance Material (Kerosine Type), NATO Code F-35.

JET A

Jet A is a similar kerosine type of fuel, produced to an ASTM specification and normally only available in the U.S.A. It has the same flash point as Jet A-1 but a higher freeze point maximum (-40°C). It is supplied against the ASTM D1655 (Jet A) specification.

JET B

Jet B is a distillate covering the naphtha and kerosine fractions. It can be used as an alternative to Jet A-1 but because it is more difficult to handle (higher flammability), there is only significant demand in very cold climates where its better cold weather performance is important. In Canada it is supplied against the Canadian Specification CAN/CGSB 3.23

MILITARY

JP-4

JP-4 is the military equivalent of Jet B with the addition of corrosion inhibitor and anti-icing additives; it meets the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-PRF-5624S Grade JP-4. JP-4 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-88 AVTAG/FSII (formerly DERD 2454),where FSII stands for Fuel Systems Icing Inhibitor. NATO Code F-40.

JP-5

JP-5 is a high flash point kerosine meeting the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-PRF-5624S Grade JP-5. JP-5 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-86 AVCAT/FSII (formerly DERD 2452). NATO Code F-44.

JP-8

JP-8 is the military equivalent of Jet A-1 with the addition of corrosion inhibitor and anti-icing additives; it meets the requirements of the U.S. Military Specification MIL-T-83188D. JP-8 also meets the requirements of the British Specification DEF STAN 91-87 AVTUR/FSII (formerly DERD 2453). NATO Code F-34.
* END QUOTE*
The U.S Navy uses the same fuel for aircraft, gas turbine ships and diesel generators. A gas turbine can run on anything flamable that you can pump in including gasses, liquids and solids.

Edited to show beginning and end of quote from other site.

Cuda,
It may be a typo, but the Navy switched from JP-4 to JP-5, not JP-8. 5 is higher octane, and cleaner burning. All carrier based craft (and several ships) run off JP-5.

Hey hou_ge;
well your 1/2 right, it is kerosene and gasolene mixture, it depend on what type you want, the AF & Navy use JP-8 it's almost like Diesel fuel and it's really hard to ignite by an open flame, back a few years ago the services used JP-4 which has a higher content of gas then kerosene and will ignite alot easier as for fuel consumtion yes the jet engines have a high rate of fuel burn, but if you really look into the engine they have an intresting way of burning fuel, first the fuel is sprayed into a burner can at about 500 PSI just to keep the engine pressures at the rate to cause continual ignition after the engine is started, unlike the reciprocating engines in your cars, the engine is run on constant pressure not constant volume, and they do suck the fuel down quickly but it creates a major amount of pressure aft of the engine, if you have the time read some books on how Turbine engine run it'll really be interesting reading
Ugly Butt Effective Hawgs
cuda

Yes, Jet fuel is a kerosene based product.

I do believe that a top fuel dragster is far less fuel efficient than a jet engine...

Darren