German Variety?

This is a good topic, and I am sure that we will all learn some from it.

As I understand it, it goes something like this:

Before WWII the Germans had three main tanks. The PZ II was originally supposed to be a vehicle that would participate in tank to tank combat, but it was realized early on that its capabilities would not be sufficient for this role. The PZ III was the main battle tank for the German army for the early part of the war. The PZ IV was meant to be an infantry support vehicle. When the Germans annexed Czechoslovak in 38, or 39 (it was in there somewhere) they obtained the 35t and 38t tanks, and all the production resources for these tanks. Obviously these newly acquired tanks would see German service.

There were heavier tanks being developed, but they were not a priority because there was no immediate indication that these tanks would be needed. When the Germans rolled over the French, and with victories in N Africa, this attitude was just confirmed. When the German Army attacked Russia in June of 1941 they ran into the T34, and this would change EVERYTHING!!!!

The T34 was far superior to anything that the Germans had. The PZ IIIs 5cm gun was no match for the sloped armor of the T34 and its 76mm gun. All of a sudden the development of a heavier German tank became top priority. All the designs being developed for a heavier tank went out the window and new designs were started. Until these tanks could be produced though, something had to be done. During this time, the Germans mounted any capable gun on any available superstructure to deal with the T34. This is why there were so many different types of AFVs used by Germany. (Interestingly enough, it was initially proposed that the T34 be copied, but this was believed to not be practical)

When the Tiger 1 and Panthers first became available, it may have been too late for a German victory. By the time the few Tigers saw combat in N Africa, a German defeat was already imminent. After the defeat at Stalingrad the Panther would debut at Kursk, but this was a huge disaster for the Panzer divisions involved. The German army had just lost 2 armies in N Africa and Stalingrad, and a lot of valuable tanks at Kursk. The German echelon realized the situation and did not want to stop production of existing tanks to refit the factories for production of the new tanks. The theory was that the Panzer units needed numbers and to stop the production lines to refit them was unacceptable.

This remained the case until the end of the war. You ask if so many different tanks in use had an effect on the outcome for the Germans? YES!! By the end of the war, unit commanders were dealing with serious supply issues. On top of that, making sure that all the right parts and correct ammo got to where they were needed to be was an impossible task. An abandoned German tank because of lack of replacement or interchangeable parts was a common site towards the end of the war.

Do I think that the Germans could have won the war if they had been reduced to production of only the Tiger II, and Panther tanks? Probably not, but perhaps they could have forced a stalemate. Of course this was only one of many issues that doomed the Germans. (thank God for that!!!)

Not an expert over here, but its my . sorry for being so long winded, hope I helped answer your question. Leopold, anything to add, or correct? feel free...

edog

That would explain a few things. It makes sense that their variety in tank production was dictated by the coarse of the war. I guess that just had to do thier best with what they had at hand. Thanks for the info.

Chris

Weapon development gets really fast during war... Everyone tries to outdo the other of course, and you end up with a large number of designs in a very short period of time... New products can not replace older models overnight, so you end up with lots of different models in service at any one time... Furthermore, older designs rarely get tossed away.. They can always be used for something new... Hence for instance obsolete Pz38(t) became very successful Marders...

Sure enough, though, it must have been a logistical nightmare to keep so many different vehicles running... And tanks were only the tip of the iceberg... Think of the colossal number of different trucks and cars the Wehmacht (to name but one single user!) used throughout WWII...

QUOTE: Weapon development gets really fast during war... Everyone tries to outdo the other of course

And not just between countries - within Germany there were all kinds of political and economic factors and rivalries, and most weapons manufacturers were keen to turn a fast buck.

German technology was often selected on favoritism as much as suitability for the job, and hence why later vehicles made few concessions to manufacturing speed or resource shortages - rare metals, rubber, massive fuel consumption. If one acknowledged materials were in short supply, it was implied that the war effort was failing, and such talk was treason!

Too add to edog's overall picture, I think that the vehicles from captured countries should have been melted down and turned into Pz IVs, Panthers etc. The plethora of vehicles from other countries made supply a nightmare and the German designs were vastly superior. IMHO the Tiger family should not have been built, the Panther had better penetration and armor than the Tiger and the Panther II would have topped the King Tiger. The time and effort would have been better spent repairing the flaws in the Panther.

Another (Monday morning) theory:

In the '30's, the Germans realized that variety was the spice of life. Hence, when ever they expanded their national boundaries (to experience the variety of Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Eastern Russia, etc). They also enjoyed the variety of their armor.

So, add to the excellent list of different German beers, and to a lesser extent wines, the list of foreign vehicle varieties the Germans got to play with. This way, the German high command was sure that their troops were never bored in the field and that their mechanics would be quailified to work on vehicles from any counrty on earth after the war ended! Never mind the logisical headaches caused for the supply system... that's why the Germans invented asprin...?

Now, wouldn't modeling be dull without all that German zest for variety, not to mention their excellent recycling program!

Smiles (yes, it's been a dull Monday so far)

Ron.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poniatowski Another (Monday morning) theory: In the '30's, the Germans realized that variety was the spice of life. Hence, when ever they expanded their national boundaries (to experience the variety of Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Eastern Russia, etc). They also enjoyed the variety of their armor.

I knew you were completely kiddin', but sadly the facts are very different (as you of course know). They conquered many countries specifically because they knew that there was variety in those countries, a variety they did not like one bit. They wanted to make all of Europe homogeneous -- homogeneously "Aryan," whatever that means, and that involved marching into countries and rounding up and killing everyone who was adjudged "different."

So much for variety. The short answer is that Hitler was like a kid in a candy store when it came to tanks, and didn't listen to his top tank men when it came to vehicle development (read Guderian to get a first-hand account of this), so he wanted all these different toys to play with.

Thank God they had their heads up their asses when it came to vehicle development. And this was of course a good thing, as it made it that much easier to administer the thunderous beating that they so richly deserved.

It also gave us some funky vehicles to model.

Larry, Absoluetly right! My last name, Poniatowski, may give you a hint as to my heritage. My family lost all of its Polish relatives during WWII and the early Soviet occupations. I know my Aunt is very bitter toward both the Germans and Soviet Russians, but I never personally knew any of my Polish relatives, although I wish I could.

I hope everybody takes it as the chuckle (Monday morning type) that it was intended to be. If not... oh well, no harm meant. Besides, the Germans do make great beer.... sausage.... bread.... pretzels Yum! (notice I didn't say 'pastry'? I like Danish pastry!)

Ron.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Poniatowski My family lost all of its Polish relatives during WWII and the early Soviet occupations. I know my Aunt is very bitter toward both the Germans and Soviet Russians, but I never personally knew any of my Polish relatives, although I wish I could.

Poland has a sad and bitter history. It's not for no reason that they call it "God's playground."

It does cheer one a bit though to think of the prominent place the Poles took in defeating the Nazi menace -- takers of Monte Cassino, pluggers of the Falaise Pocket. They were some of the only troops on earth that the Germans -- even the SS -- feared.

Thanks for all of the good information posted so far in this thread.
mark956