Where to mount a Ma Deuce on an M4A1 Sherman

The most common place early in the war was on the rear center of the turret roof.  The idea was that a gunner would stand on the rear deck, behind the turret and engage aircraft.  It was later relocated to the TC's cupola ring as it was found the more common target the M2 .50 cal was used on were troops and vehicles on the ground.

Turret rear top mount.

Thanks Arty -- think I will go w/ the Cupola ring -

Dog

Look at this top view of an M4A1. The socket on the edge of the split ring hatch is the mounting point for the .50 cal. The hatch itself can be rotated so it is not always at the rear.

http://www.lonesentry.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/how-is-your-sherman-herman.jpg

The hatch itself can be rotated so it is not always at the rear.

That is not what I was talking about by a rear-mounted pintle.  On early M4A1s, the pintle mount itself was welded to the turret roof near the rear center.  Later, it was changed to the pintle on the TC's cupola.  Either way is correct depending on when you are depicting.

Not trying to start a fight or anything HA, but do you have any pics of the early rear mounted pintle? I would love to see those. All my references show the split ring hatch mount or the later center turret roof mount once the split ring hatch was replaced on the late model turrets. The ones with the single piece TC hatch on the vision port cupola and the seperate oval loaders hatch.

Hi Gino,

I'm with Stikpusher on this one.  Once the M4 was standardized, a fitting for the A.A. gun was attached to the cupola split ring, this taking place in the spring of '42.  Once the 75mm gun turrets started receiving the all around vision cupola in mid/late '44, a folding pedestal mount was added towards the rear of the turret.  Your description fits a late war tank.

Ok, maybe I am thinking of a late war tank then.  I know I had seen the rear mounted pedestal that was not on the TC's cupola.

I had found many different options and photos of mounting the .50.  The most common I found was if it had a split ring hatch on the TC's cupola then it was mounted there.  If the TC's hatch was the one piece one then the .50's pintle was welded to the tanks roof, back center.  This is just the most common and not always true.  Have seen early M1A1's with a split hatch with the .50 pintle welded to the tanks's roof as HeavyArty was talking about.  Have also seen the .50 mounted to the tank's roof and anouther .50 or .30 mounted to the loader's hatch.  I chose that option on one of my builds.

Rob

Hi Rob,

I wouldn't rely on your top two pics as true evidence of wartime configurations.  The top photo is of the Grizzly that belongs to the Military Technology Foundation in Portola Valley CA(where I volunteer).  It started life with the split ring cupola with A.A. machine gun bracket with the vision cupola and pedestal mount being added post-war by the Canadian or Portuguese armies.  The second tank is a M4A3(75)W and appears to be crewed by re-enactors.  It is certainly post-war as flash suppressors weren't used on the M2 .50 cal during WW II. 

It should be noted that the early split ring cupola rotated and that could give the impression that the .50 cal was mounted on the rear of the turret.  The picture that Gino posted is an example of that.  The cupola was rotated to 180 degrees so the .50 cal faced to the rear.  With the .50 cal facing the front, the mount could partially obstruct the commander's view forward view from the hatch mounted cupola periscope. 

On the later style mount, it is not uncommon to find pics of the pintle socket attached forward of the hatches either on late war tanks.

But yes, modern restored vehicles are NOT a good source for relable reference. They have often been rebuilt and modified from their original configuration.