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Panzer IV question

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  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Panzer IV question
Posted by DoogsATX on Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:17 AM

Now that the Achilles is (finally!) wrapping up, I'm starting to think about my next armor build, Dragon's Panzer IV Ausf G.

This seems like an ideal platform to practice whitewashing techniques, but one thing I can't quite make out from the manual is what color I should use to undercoat the whitewash. Should it be gray or gelb?

This would be for a Panzer with the LAH Division at Kharkov in 1943...

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:29 AM

Modern research suggests that these Mk IV's were in the sand-gelb---probably the very first batch to get painted in gelb... 

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: San Antonio
Posted by MAJ Mike on Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:30 AM

According to an online article, WWII German AFV Colours on Panzerworld.net , as of February 1943 vehicles were supplied with dunkelgelb at the factory and then received camo in the field.  Operational vehicles painted schwartzgrau were not to be painted in the new base color.  Camo paint paste was provided to create two-color and three-color patterns.

The three colors would be olivgrun, shockoladenbraun, and dunklegelb (as the base coat).

Hope that helps.

 

 

 "I'd "I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct."

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:30 AM

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:03 PM

Considering the time period, you could go with gray or gelb and not be wrong.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:15 PM

stikpusher

Considering the time period, you could go with gray or gelb and not be wrong.

Yes you could...LAH, Das Reich and Totenkopf (to a lesser degree) received factory-fresh Mk IV's that were detrained near Kharkov right before the German counter-offensive...modern scholarship has concluded that these were all painted in dunkel-gelb with a very neat whitewash finish...Wiking and Totenkopf had many Mk III's that were still in panzer grey, however---with whitewash on top of it... 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:30 PM

Exactly, a new production vehicle in the new color, or an older vehicle in the old color. I found this pic on a quick websearch. Not sure if it's colorized or original Agfa color film, but...

 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Somewhere in Lima, Perú
Posted by Zero Enna on Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:37 PM

Kharkov 1943 means Third Battle of Kharkov (13 January to 3 April), dark yellow was introduced from February 1943 so you can use either... I'd go for panzer gray, it looks nicer... I'd use dark yellow for a Kursk Pz. IV. Best regards.

 

José.

"Vivir venciendo o morir matando"
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:41 PM

stikpusher

Exactly, a new production vehicle in the new color, or an older vehicle in the old color. I found this pic on a quick websearch. Not sure if it's colorized or original Agfa color film, but...

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i181/stikpusher/online%20photos/20080927.jpg

 

It is colorized...

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:42 PM

Zero Enna

Kharkov 1943 means Third Battle of Kharkov (13 January to 3 April), dark yellow was introduced from February 1943 so you can use either... I'd go for panzer gray, it looks nicer... I'd use dark yellow for a Kursk Pz. IV. Best regards.

 

José.

According to my research the Mk IV's that were detrained for the SS Panzerkorps prior to the battle were painted in dark yellow...

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: San Antonio
Posted by MAJ Mike on Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:43 PM

As with most things, it depends.  If you're talking a brand new Panzer IV right off the assembly line, then dunklegelb would be the best choice.  If you're talking an older, more world-weary vehicle, the grey would be the choice.

No need to count bolt holes on road wheels, but the base color will determine how much weathering and battle damage you depict.  I state the obvious, but that's a service I offer for free.

 

 

 "I'd "I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct."

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:44 PM

For the last time---they were dark yellow with neatly applied whitewash...

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, April 28, 2011 12:46 PM

Upon closer examination, I am gonna have to agree there, but it is one of the better colorizing jobs I have seen.Hmm

anyways here is a link to Karkov 1943 related photos in the Bundesarchiv... all B&W of course

http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/cross-search/search/_1304012039/?search[page]=1

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Texas
Posted by wbill76 on Sunday, May 1, 2011 11:59 AM

Guys,

Have to remember here that, as MR points out, the markings provided in the kit are the determining factor on the accuracy of whether the underlying paint should be DY or PzGray. The markings supplied in the DML kit cover the following vehicles/units:

1.Pz.Gren.Div "LAH" 1943, veh 205

1.Pz.Gren.Div "LAH" 1943, veh 215

3./Pz.Regt. "Totenkopf", Pz.Gren.Div. "Totenkopf", Kharkov 1943

Pz.Rgt.GD, Pz.Gren.Div. "GroSdeutschland", Russia 1943-44

1.Pz.Div., Greece, 1943

So, the answer to Doog's original question and the relevant "accuracy" question on the whitewash comes down to the particular unit and vehicle that is being depicted. Pz IV G's were delivered in Pz Gray in the course of the second half of '42 and those particular vehicles would have had gray under the whitewash...brand new vehicles produced in the early Feb '43 period onward and delivered straight to the front (as MR points out for specific units that the kit does provide markings for) would have had the DY basecoat and whitewash over that. As MR also points out, many of these vehicles were delivered to the front already in whitewash over the DY vs. it being applied in the field and are remarkable for that fact as their whitewash is very neat and not at all "rushed" or hasty and the pics that show these vehicles being delivered support this semi-unique appearance.

This isn't wheel bolt counting or rivet counting for the sake of nit-picking, it's a question of accuracy tied to the unit and battle circumstances that this particular kit is aimed at representing. Wink HTH!

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, May 1, 2011 2:02 PM

Yes that makes perfect sense. Now of course there would potentially be several different Mk IVs with the same turret number, lets say "231", in a unit over a period of time due to battle losses, mechanical breakdown, etc. So then it becomes a case of researching that particular time period for photos to support one or the other base color.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

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