Tank Workshop

There is truth in your words and I respect that.

But for me there is NO need to be bothersome or gritty or whatever way you want to put it.

I never say anything to anyone on the internet I would not say to their face, how many posters can honestly say that, or should I say how many of those gritty types can say that?

I said this a while ago here and I will say that about most all forums. Many people do not post out of either fear or just not wanting to deal with it attitude, because of the antagonistic responses to their posts.

Many think twice and decide not to post because of the possible negative and acidic responses. So some of what you say is true and some of what I say is true. Be honest with yourself, I say that to all of the people who post here, how many times did you NOT post something because of the possibility that one or more of the people that inhabit this forum will post an unwarranted and unnecessary negative response.

That kind of thing is what makes it like a school yard mentality, who needs that crap as an adult, I dislike it so much it makes me write this stuff. I do not want to nor like to write these kinds of posts yet I find myself doing it a lot over the years, same crap, same post, same responses by the same types of people.

I think I got my point across and will repeat it so there is no misunderstanding, it's simple, if you don't have anything good to say just don't say it and treat people the way you want to be treated. Follow those two simple things and the world would be a better place, wouldn't it? You can start right here..........

BDB, there used to be far more activity on all subject areas until the format change of a couple years ago. At that point many of the prolific posters left because they were not happy with the site's current style. Armor has always tended to be a "tough cowd" in the forums. It is what it is. Yes armor has been slow lately, but that is also typical of this time of year when the weather is improving and life tends to make more demands on our free time to keep us away from the bench and computer. If we skip over Shermans and Panzers related threads in the Armor forum, of course there is little else left, because that is the bread an butter of armor here. Modern armor is a distant 2nd to WWII subjects and WWI/Between the wars an even more distant 3rd. Aircraft is a livelier area, and Odds and Ends can really get non stop. This place is not slow because of a loose approach to mods, its slow in armor because there tend to be fewer armor modelers on here as opposed to other types, and due to the time of year with longer sunny days being here. There is no way we are gonna change someone elses posting style via discussion on here. Youre not a moderator here, nor am I. And unless we get a job with Kalmbach and this magazine, I doubt we ever will be. There are some folks in here who will say something bothersome to you, me or somebody in 90% of their posts. But sometimes in their 50 grit words are some grains of reasonable truth or thought for digestion.

That's your opinion and I have to disagree except for the mortar barrage analogy, that is a good one. I think this place is not well moderated and in fact falls into the middle of the pack in terms of posts which are few and far between in the armor section at least. Usually I say if it ain't broke then don't fix it, this place isn't broke but it surely isn't fully operational.

If you skip over the Sherman tanks and Panzers there are very few posts here. I think Sherman1111 made it clear why if anybody read his replies.

I am hopeful this thread made for some thought from certain posters, in a positive way.

The moderation here has been fine for years BDB. As long as no one violates the rules of the forum, discussions are allowed to continue, some serious, and some silly. Some folks here have the tact of a mortar barrage, and others are as smooth as a career politician. It's not any of our place to change that. If one feels that a poster is out of line and the "report" button is hit, the mods here take appropriate action. We do not need the thought and speech police to review every post before it shows up online. That would kill this place faster than any heated pi$$ing matches.

Right now this thread is just spinning its' wheels. Both sides have made their points and it really has nothing to do with the original topic of the thread.

All forums with weak moderation are like this.

If the people that run the web site have strong moderation these types of discussions never happen. Too much moderation with agendas and you get a horror that quickly turns into 5 people talking with each other.

I was a mod on a sports forum so I know.

This forum has weak moderation.

Again I will say the point is if you don't have something good to say, just shut up. If the post is stupid or out of line then it will disappear very quickly if nobody says anything. Yes it's that simple........

But when people feel like they must be the forum police you have problems. Again due to weak moderation.

I have yet to see a forum were people treat each other with respect. That's why strong moderation is needed. But as long as people keep coming and posting the web site has a high viewership which allows them to make money. The higher the viewership the more they get from the ads on the pages. A good reason to not moderate that much.

Look at all the advertisement here, the more we post and the more we view, the more money they make. So there is no reason for someone to come in and say enough guys and this person was wrong and is being warned. No reason at all to do that here, they are just about making money obviously.

I did look at a few modeling forums when I started making models and this one looked as good or bad as any other. One was a total horror caused by a few clowns who think they knew everything. One of them posts here. It turned me off and I don't go there.

All forums are the same, mostly good people but a few who just do not understand simple courtesy and respectfulness to others. When it's pointed out to them they get defensive because they just do not get it. I have also noticed when the person who was disrespected fights back, he then gets bullied by the people on the forum.

It happens over and over again on all forums, I have seen it for years now. Same thing, same types of people. The names change, the forums change but the horrible behavior continues. And the people that just don't get it never do.

Pawel

Ain't that funny! Without a little controversy this thread woulda been dead long ago. But we got controversy, and now it's cranking pretty good...

Now it's hard for me to understand why 1111 says he's never going to post anything more here. It's like something changed for him - like he thought everybody loves him, and now it turns it is not so, so he's quitting... OK, OK it wasn't funny - my point is what's the reason you're writing on the forums? I guess some do this to share, others to piss people off (good day to you, field marshall, sir! :-). Say you want to share - there are 100 nice people reading your posts, and then someone - one! annoys you. You quit. You only want to deal with nice people. Two problems: you're letting those 100 nice people down. And there's also the possibility of misunderstanding, somebody having a bad day etc. How often can it be said there are all kinds of people, especially on the internet, can't only have those good and nice around 100% time?

More importantly - if someone makes you mad, it's only because you LET HIM. You are responsible for your reactions. It's not easy to take this responsibility - I can't say I can do it 100% of the time - but we should all try. I believe if we all did, the world would be a better place. The forums are a perfect place to practice this - a pity to waste such an oportunity.

OK, hope I didn't bore y'all too much - thanks for reading and have a nice day

Paweł

Totally agree Pawel

Can't you two just agree to disagree and just damn well move on. Threads like this do our great forum NO good whatsoever.

A newbie modeller watching from the sidelines would probably be put off from making his first steps into this forum which is never good.

Just my

If you can't be civil then at least put the angry posts onto pm's.

Regards,

Ben

1 - This whole argument is kind of silly. 

2 - I'm planning on ordering TW's Firefly turret when I get around to building my Orange Box Firefly V, but I may order a few other goodies based on the positive experiences mentioned in this thread.

Bronto. As was said before, ya just don't get it. I don't get it. I guess you clueless  Your not worth an argument anymore. Your invisible to me in the forums. 

Chazzer

Hmmmm....Maybe I was wrong, maybe you are just starting to get it.

You say: You can express your opinions on things as you have done just as anyone else can.

You forgot to add without anybody needlessly adding anything to offend the poster. The key word is needlessly. If the poster is being a real *** then he might need some straightening out Brooklyn style. Other than that I feel if you don't have anything good to say then don't say it.

BigDaddyBluesman

 

I can now say a lot of things I am sure will piss you off that others and myself would find trivial, but I won't stoop to that level.

Actually, you can't.  I see this for what it is, just a discussion board.  Nothing you could say here would piss me off.  You can express your opinions on things as you have done just as anyone else can.

I'm sitting here thinking and a memory comes to me.....School. I grew up in some pretty tough schools in Brooklyn, New York.

I remember there were four types of kids.

The bully.

The bullied.

The kids who rather side with the bully rather then be bullied.

The ones who played no part in the bullying nor did they intervene and did their best to be invisible.

AND.........me, the kid who would not allow others to bully, I would fight for the weaker ones who could not, especially since they faced more then one kid.

Yes I got my *** kicked sometimes but it was worth it at the time. I guess I'm still that way. Once having been a pretty tough guy now not being able to do much let alone protect myself other then the sharp edge I carry.

I see how people try to take advantage of me because I am disabled now. They are very surprised when it doesn't work and how I get in their face. I still live in New York City, there's somebody looking to take advantage of you all over the place here.

Pawel you bring out a good point. Yes your words are true but till my dying day I will keep hoping humanity learns the meaning of simple courtesy and empathy for their fellow human being. The internet has not helped and maybe has done more harm in that respect.

A retired Marine......well then now we all understand.

If you said you were a retired librarian it would be different.

Keep staying in character Bronto.

You still don't get it and I suspect you never will.

I can now say a lot of things I am sure will piss you off that others and myself would find trivial, but I won't stoop to that level.

Ain't that funny! Without a little controversy this thread woulda been dead long ago. But we got controversy, and now it's cranking pretty good...

Now it's hard for me to understand why 1111 says he's never going to post anything more here. It's like something changed for him - like he thought everybody loves him, and now it turns it is not so, so he's quitting... OK, OK it wasn't funny - my point is what's the reason you're writing on the forums? I guess some do this to share, others to piss people off (good day to you, field marshall, sir! :-). Say you want to share - there are 100 nice people reading your posts, and then someone - one! annoys you. You quit. You only want to deal with nice people. Two problems: you're letting those 100 nice people down. And there's also the possibility of misunderstanding, somebody having a bad day etc. How often can it be said there are all kinds of people, especially on the internet, can't only have those good and nice around 100% time?

More importantly - if someone makes you mad, it's only because you LET HIM. You are responsible for your reactions. It's not easy to take this responsibility - I can't say I can do it 100% of the time - but we should all try. I believe if we all did, the world would be a better place. The forums are a perfect place to practice this - a pity to waste such an oportunity.

OK, hope I didn't bore y'all too much - thanks for reading and have a nice day

Paweł

I never said I didn't care if they were offended.  If they were offended that was not my intention.  No where did I say anything anywhere anyhow that its all about me blah blah blah.  Oh and FYI I'm old enough to be a retired Marine, so maybe you're the one that should grow up instead of throwing personal attacks into this mess.

That's the problem you don't get it.

Trivial to you means something else to another person.

I'm sure there are things that you are sensitive about and if someone said something you would have an issue with that. But to them it could be trivial.

It's all about you, the world and everything else in it, who cares if someone else is offended it's just trivial.

I don't know how old you are but that is exactly how immature or teenagers act and feel.

Bronto grow up........

If someone is leaving the forum just because of the way I interpreted a post, seems a pretty trivial reason to me.

  Jim, I am pissed off that we have to lose a forum member and contributor because of the stupid remarks of a @#$%@#$ member. As you said, it's happening more and more often lately. I have been knocked around in these forums a few times to. To put it bluntly it's bull****! People around here need to LIGHTEN   UP!!!! These forums are supposed to be enjoyable! It seems like people behind the screens just want to challenge everything that is posted.

I'm pissed that I have to comment on something that shouldn't have been said in the first place. All you did was comment on a great company. Whats the matter with that? I'm sorry you have to go. OUR LOSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If your still around thank you. hopefully we will learn. People, lets just try to play nice. Now, that being said, lets go build some models!!!!!      

Scott (Chazzer)

Nice to hear that about a company. Good luck to them, I hope they stick around and continue to offer good customer support and interest like that. 

stikpusher, its good you got some good service from Tamiya. I had just he opposite. I had a set of kit supplied tracks for their japanese chi ha kit completely disintegrate on me about a month after the kit was finished. When I contacted Tamiya about it and talked to a rep from the company the response was simply "Hmmm, never heard of that happening before. Sorry we can't offer you replacements and don't know what to tell you..." Several attempts to contact them about it later, send pictures etc. resulted in nothing, nada, zilch. Eventually I'll replace them with some other after market  but for now it sits there looking woefully crippled. 

In another case I picked up a 1/72 armor kit from DML. So impressed with the kit when I looked it over, I went on a buying spree, picking up several.   The lower metal hull of the kit just failed. The metal casting crumbled like week old stale bread. Much of the same back and forth with Dragon Care, photos, e-mails,etc. lead to nothing accept the admission that there may have been a casting issue with the plant in China. I returned the other kits to the hobby shop I purchased them from and was never given any satisfaction from DML on the in progress kit that the metal failed. 

While big companies can sometimes be helpful they are also capricious. Small companies need good customer relations to survive in a highly competitive market and I'm glad to see TW  is a scrapper in the fight. 

Well information of that sort about a company and their customer support/service make me more likely to buy their product.

Last month I had a similar experience with Tamiya. I had purchased a kit secondhand off an estate sale of a deceased modeler's stash. Unfortunately that gentleman had lost some of the parts. I contacted Tamiya Customer Support to get replacements, explained the exact circumstances, and was expecting to pay for any replacement parts. Tamiya asked what I needed, my address, and sent the parts free of charge. Does this mean other companies are bad? No, but it does mean that Tamiya sets a high standard of customer service to support their product. And I shared that here among fellow modelers.

I now add Tank Workshop to Tamiya (and a few others) as a company that rises above the rest in their quality of service!

Thank you for sharing Jim/Sherman1111

Ye, lou said the same to me. Was finding it hard since his daughter was born. I have checked the site since, just not had a need to order it as i normally get my metal barrels from there, but not needed any lately. I usually get my Frils from hannants or Historex when i do a large order. But at that price its deffinatly worth looking at.  Though to be honest, hannats fruils are about £31, which isn't to bad.

Those muzzel covers are very nice, and TW do a few nice things i like the look at. Isn't the new guys name steve.

Bish

Ben, speaking of your Fril supplier, is that still Lou Steiners armour Models. I haven't bought from that site since he sold it, are things still the same as before.

I bought a couple of TW items from Lou, mainly AFV muzzel covers, and they are great.

Hey Bish,

Indeed it is the one and only Armour Models! Lou told me that he has a 'proper' full time job too and running Armour Models aswell was taking up all of his time and he wanted more time to spend with his young family - hence the selling of the business.

I've since ordered Friuls from the new guy - the web address is all the same still - and the new chap seems very pleasant. The last set of Friuls I bought from Lou were £32 but the average price of a box has now been cut to £28. The new guy told me that he thought they were a tad too expensive so he was going to be chopping prices, even if only slightly, wherever he could

Funny you should mention AFV muzzle covers - that was something I was looking at the other day on the Armour Models site myself.

It would definately seem that you are in safe hands with the new owner - I'm racking my brains for his name but I honestly can't remember it! All in all, he seems like a decent and genuine chap.

ATVB

Ben

So they didn't just send you the part, which you lost, but they cast one just for you, at no charge.

I don't care what anyone says, thats customer service of the highest level. Its always nice to hear about this, as it is about bad service. fter all, isn't this site meant for swapping info like this as well as building methods and showing pics.

Thank you for shareing this, and i really hope you stick around.

The story on the part is I lost it, my fault. I sent an email to Tank workshop on a thursday and had a reply on friday that they would cast a new part, yes this is a resin kit for no charge and no shipping. this was the dash board a main part on the M123A1C 10 ton Tractor on monday I recevied an email that the part was shipped. I posted as a thank you to Tank workshop for what they did for me. as for the first reply, I feal was out of line.. I have been a member of this forum and subscriber of the magizine for years. and this is not the first time  this has happened to me,  it just gets old. There are other boards that I use where I don't have deal with this. that is why I am stepping away.

Jim

Ben, speaking of your Fril supplier, is that still Lou Steiners armour Models. I haven't bought from that site since he sold it, are things still the same as before.

I bought a couple of TW items from Lou, mainly AFV muzzel covers, and they are great.

BaBill212

As far as where this thread turned - sometimes the written word can be misinterpreted.

Purely my but I can't see any implication by the OP that companies are bad for not replacing lost parts. Purely that TW went above and beyond the call of duty in his eyes to sort him out asap and he was VERY pleased and wanted to tell his fellow modellers so! 

The OP could have explained the circumstances re the lost part i.e. carpet monster, not in the box etc a little better. Did he have to pay for the replacement? That sort of stuff.

Anyway, as for TW I don't go to them specifically, but when ordering very small scale chain and other bits from my Friul supplier it always comes as a TW product and their stuff is excellent

Shame the OP here hasn't been back since - this could have been sorted very easily and he definately won't find a better armour forum anywhere!

Ho hum

Regards,

Ben

Jim

Thanks for the heads-up on Tank Workshop. I agree,, it is nice to have a company stand behind their product.....     which is seemingly a lost business faction these days.

As far as where this thread turned - sometimes the written word can be misinterpreted.

Its always nice to hear when some one gets good service from a company, as it is useful to hear about bad service. And just vecause he mentions this company, doesn't mean he is implying others are bad, even those who don't replace parts. Information shareing of thise sort is very useful to modellers.

BigDaddy, you seem to be having a problem with Italeri. That makes two of us. I have e-mailed several tyime about some decals, and they haven't even bothered to get back to me.

Its good to hear this about Tank Workshop. I have had a few of their parts and they are very good. Nice to hear they look after their customers.

Suffice to say Bronto, he has not posted here since your response. It was a sort of slapdown in its delivery. I did not see any implication about other companies being bad. Merely a happy customer regarding one company's customer service. With as many gripes we see on here regarding customer service from many companies in this hobby, it was nice to see a positive post. Too bad the thread took this turn.

Some times people just do not see how they are perceived. I had that problem and still do, the best intentions are often misunderstood.

I think the guy was just happy someone in an industry that ignores a lot of their buyers actually was helpful and he was sharing that with us, that's all.

And it actually reminded me I need some parts for the M728 I want to build, the TWS M60 cupola is one of them.

It's not about agreement, it's about talking with each other. The internet has become an impersonal place were people have forgotten they are talking WITH other human beings. That's what I try very hard to do, talk with other people as though I were with them in the same room or at the least on the phone. It's so easy to totally misunderstand something that was written. It's so easy to forget you are talking to a flesh and blood human being with feelings and emotions just like yourself, although too many people these days don't care about that.

I do have two sayings that I try to live by, "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything" and "treat people the same as I want to be treated". Of course that last one has a caveat, it is unless they are complete idiots and Aholes.