Semovente 75/18 and other italian armor in Russi***

At work at the moment (on a break), but off the top of my head, I believe neither of those vehicles saw service in Russia.  The initial forces that were sent there were light and more or less motorized (yea that includes bicycles and mules).  I do have Italeri's L6/40 light tank and recall seeing a colour plate for  service in Russia.  Once home I'll check for other vehicles... if more types are found I'll make a second post.  Fairly certain too that some CV-33/CV-35 tankettes  were sent too.

regards,

Jack

TL, it took me about 5 seconds to type M13/40 into google, and another second to get this return

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_M13/40

it has your answers. You really could do a little internet research yourself before you ask many of your questions.

Excellent find there stik. 

So yes to the Semovente, but not the vehicle most are familier with (75mm).  The one sent to Russia was a 47mm gun mounted on the L6 chasis.  Only other vehicle to add is the amoured car.  Seems all kit reviews of the AB41 state it served there, but been hard pressed to find an actual unit equiped with them.   Best I could find was this: Track 48 Discussion Forum  - seems only a handful were ever deployed there.

Regards,

Jack

Thank you for the info, sorry guys, my internet here allows us limited access to some information, that New Mexico Military Institute for you guys.  on a side note, StikPusher I noticed your avatar picture, your not on the ESPN Army Football blog are you?

Theres a picture of a Fiat M14/41 in warsaw during the uprising, would that have been more or so in an anti partisan unit?

The Warsaw Uprising is beyond my scope.  Tanks used for policing duties, maybe but I think this would be more of an armoured car role (any battle worthy tanks am sure were sent to the front to bolster forces opposing the Soviet onslaught).  No doubt the picture is of a captured Italian vehicle pressed into German service  that was either sent to the area after Italy signed their armistice in Sept. 1943 or was a reinforcement  to suppress the uprising.

regards,

Jack

From the information I have, the only tank that was used by the Italians on the Eastern front was the L6/40 as well as the Semovente L40 da 47/32 based on the same chasis. The M13/40 series (including the M14/41 and M15/42) were not employed by the Italians there. Some M13/40's were used in Greece and Yugoslavia in 1941/42 with the Centauro and Littorio Divisions. Armor units used in the Eastern Front were independent battalions.

After the armistice of 1943, the Germans used a large variety of Italian armor for anti-partisan work. You would see L3/35 used in this role throughout the Balkans as well as the AB41 series of armoured cars. In the Panzer Wrecks series of publications there is alot of pictures of these vehicles including the M13/40 series used in anti-partisan units. The vehicle in Warsaw, I believe was from one of those units. This is what information that I have on that one in Warsaw. It wasn't used by the Home Army, guessing that it broke down.

German Panzerkampfwagen M14/41 736(i) (Italian Carro Armato M13/41) medium tank

Two T-34's were captured by the Italians and used on the Eastern Front and at least one T-28

During WWII, the Italians had only 3 armoured divisions which played a part in any actions, three additional units never truelly materialized.  Italian manufacturing had very limited capacity and for most of the time only Ariete was in the field and properly supplied the other divisions were stripped of equipment to maintain Ariete. Like most Italian divisons these units were undersized and more comparable to a British brigade in strength and equipment. None were used in the Eastern Front, the 132nd Ariete was the first completely equipped and used only in North Africa until it was dissolved after the second battle of El Alamein.

The 131st Centauro Divison was actually used first in Greece and Yugoslavia with Littorio but was recalled to Italy for replenishment. Use against prepared Greek position in the mountains was at a disavantage to the armor and they suffered greatly. It was last used in North Africa/Tunisia, played a part at Kasserine and eveuntually surrendered to Allied forces.

133rd Littorio was the other formation, used in Yugosalvia, but destroyed at second El Alamein alongside of Ariete.

Mike T.

No, that is not me on ESPN. Probably just another guy who had a similar photo taken with his team/unit in the harness before a jump. Do the firewalls at NMMI block out Google? Between that and Wiki, although not the most accurate source of info at times, you can find many of the answers that you come on these boards looking for help with. Anyways, you have to think of timelines here. The Italians withdrew their forces from Russia in early 1943 shortly after Stalingrad. Italy surrendered to the Allies in Sept 1943, and Germany moved quickly to occupy Italy and disarm Italian units there and everywhere else (Greece, Albania, Yugoslavia, the Greek isles). They then impressed into service any operational armor for their own needs. Seeing how the M13 and Semovente were sub par in Africa against the Commonwealth and later US forces, it would have stood no chance against Soviet forces at that point in 1943 with their hordes of T-34/76s, just as most other captured AFVs (primarily French) would prove. However it would be suitable for use in anti partisan operations in units tasked with that sort of duty. There was a LOT of that going on in Yugoslavia, Russia (well behind the front lines), and elsewhere such as Warsaw on occasion. So yes you will see impressed Italian AFVs in action under German colors on operations such as the crushing of the Warsaw uprising, and in combat in Italy. But logistics (spare parts primarily) are gonna be the biggest limiting factor on the use of any captured/impressed equipment and keeping it servicable. Where Germany controlled the factories in France, Italy, and Czechoslavakia, this was less of an issue, but still very much in effect.

No but for some reason NMMI will have random websites blocked that dont need to be. But thank you for the information

To say the least, Italian armor was horrible.It came from an industry not able to provide for the needs of the land forces, FIAT in particular. The M13/40 in particular was probably inferior to the M3 Stuart. for one thing the Stuart could drive rings around the M13/40. If you would use car analogies, Italians were calling compact cars, full length sedans. the P.40 supposed heavy tank probably weighed as much as a Sherman and was inferior to the earlier versions of the Sherman.

Mussolini had to have his hand into as many pies as he could. This spreading out of his resources meant that he couldn't concentrate forces within a particular theater of operations. More troops were wasted on the Eastern Front then were used in North Africa! If he was less ambitious probably more victories could be reaped.

The Semovente L75 was considered a good and timely vehicle by Rommel. Its short 75mm gun was one of the few available to be able to deal with the M3 Grants that the British were using. Using the M13/41 chassis meant they couild be well maintained. Italian mechanics worked very hard to keep vehicles in the field and are probably the unsung heroes for these Italian units. Of course, it had the curse of limited travers as does all assault guns like the StuG.

The Ariete Division was under direct use of the Afrika Korps and in many respects should be consiered a part of it. It performed well to Rommel's orders, his disparaging remarks were mostly made about the Italian infantry units which were either transport poor and equipped with pathetic arms (produced by FIAT mostly) or had no organic motorized transports and officers who had bought their commissions. The infantry NCO's were good but had to deal with the stupidity of those above them. I too would also surrender if I am left behind with 50 miles of desert to our next defensive line and only my feet to propel me. Officers in the armor units were more professional, possibly the social stigma of being around mechanics didn't draw in the officers from wealth and privelege.

This is a good read on the subject.

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Hulls-Hearts-Mussolinis-Divisions/dp/1861268394/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320355552&sr=1-1

Mike T.

I remember reading in Hans Von Lucks book, that they called italian tanks sardine cans because they were so small and could be knocked out easily, but he did have admiration for there armor crews because they wanted to fight and show they could perform up to German Standards. 

There is a New Zealand unit that in its official history will not name the Italian unit that captured it in a "Coup de Main" . It was a night situation with confused and fluid main lines. The Italian unit was in trucks many  of them captured trucks (you used what was available) and was looking for their night encampment. Seeing the New Zealand position and confusing it for one of their own (at Benghazi a large supply of British uniforms were taken, everyone was wearing them as the Italian uniforms were made of such poor material, also the Germans were using them). The Kiwis waved them in, but the Italians realized the situation first and captured the small base with hardly any casualties on both sides. An embarassing situation, but they should man up to it.

The German Ramcke Brigade made it back to the German lines after Second El Alamein by stumbling on a British supply column and commandeering it. Rommel thought they were lost as they didn't have organic transport, but two weeks after the battle they made it to the Axis lines after travelling 200 miles.

If someone was going to depict a Afrika Korps seen, they could include Allied soft skin transports as well. These were considered prizes. The Italian 20mm Breda AA gun was used alot by British forces as it was a good gun and not just by the Long Range Desert Group. Many were used portee style on trucks.

Mike T.