DAK Tiger I - Advice needed

I'm  jumping back into this thread because more research has been done in the last year. So we can clarify some things;

1. There were no "DAK" Tigers. Rommel never had command of Tigers. They were assigned to the 5th Panzer Army under von Arnim, whose task was to hold back the Allies approaching Tunisia from the west. Meanwhile the Afrikakorps was far away in Libya.

Some Tigers (1 company s.Pz.Abt. 501) were lent to the Afrikakorps for the Sidi bou Zid battle. But when Rommel asked to borrow them for his follow-up attack through the Kasserine Pass, he didn't get them.

After Rommel's departure, when the Afrikakorps got pushed back into Tunisia, a few Tigers were attached to them again. But they never owned the Tigers officially, and the Afrikakorps palm tree was never painted on a Tiger as far as we can see.

2. The Tiger factory (and there was only one factory) apparently decided to keep using their RAL8000 and RAL7008 paints until they ran out. Probably every Tiger sent to Africa (and southern Russia) was painted like the Bovington one when it was new, up to the spring of 1943. It's even possible that the second tropical scheme (designed for the desert) was used on Tigers for certain theaters, until the end of Tiger production! Research is ongoing.

3. Literally hundreds of photos of s.Pz.Abt. 501 have been studied and associated with dates and places. We can follow some individual tanks from the time they arrive in Africa to the time when the British forces see them and report "green Tigers".
At no point in this timeline is there any evidence of a repaint. The "green Tigers" therefore looked like the Bovington Tiger, finished in RAL 7008/8000. The colour pictures posted in this thread support this (where the Tiger is relatively clean).

4. The captions currently on those colour photos, at Time-Life and Getty, are wrong. They say "desert" when you can actually see fields of green crops in the photos. The real landscape has been identified by visitors to Tunisia and by satellite photos. There were no Tigers at El Guettar according to deployment records.

David

Wow !

Cool color photos !

Cool info, too ! 

Well, been a while since I got an email from this thread!

A very informative oldie but goodie thread

>> " I had no idea there were Tigers at El Guettar!  "

I don't think there were.

Those Life photos all have incorrect captions. The site depicted is actually at Kzar Mezouar and the battle was the attack on Beja.

Here are maps, Tiger IDs, and all known photos;

tiger1.info/.../4-Tigers-Panzer-graveyard-Hunts-Gap

David

I've looked at "Trail of the Tigers" by Ron Klages.

The two Tigers delivered to s.Pz.Abt. 501 in March never got beyond Sicily. So the final batch of Tigers sent to this unit in Africa, went in February.

David

G,

I'm not a Tiger expert but I believe the Tigers that were sent to N. Afrika were already in-service units while the IV-Gs sent were all new factory production sporting Dunkelgelb as a base scheme (remember the discussion about Kharkov IV-Gs and whitewash over PzGray vs DG?). Tropen schemes were usually applied at the depot level in Italy before vehicles were sent across the Med, so it would make sense that the Tigers would get a Tropen scheme (based on when they were deployed) while the IV-Gs didn't. As Byrden points out, replacement individual Tigers that were sent over vs. entire unit deployments could plausibly have skipped the Tropen scheme due to when they were sent over and/or factory produced. That's the best answer to the mystery I can provide aside from saying "never say never" when it comes to German gear.

I will have to dig out my Osprey book on El Guettar to check the Axis Order of Battle to see if Tigers participated in the combat portion depicted in the movie Patton. Most likely the Tigers were involved in some of the follow up fighting in the El Guettar valley. I do not believe that they took part in the 10th Panzer counter attack agaisnt the Big Red One that was the subject of that sequence of the movie.

Fantastic stuff, as always Stik!  Not only the photos, but the facts.  I had no idea there were Tigers at El Guettar! 

(The Patton movie showed M-60s!) - (that is a lame attempt at tank humor)

Yes indeed.  Replacements could have been Dunkelgelb rather than Braun. And as long as you dont represent the Bovington Tiger, which is rather well documented for its' peculiarities, a replacement Dunkelgelb Africa Tiger is plausible. Likely it would include some of the later production features as well. Unless you have the serial number/werknumer and turret number for a particular chassis you have some wiggle room.

So it's possible that some Dunkelgelb Tigers were delivered new to s.Pz.Abt. 504 on 28 February; but one of that batch is now at Bovington and isn't Dunkelgelb.

Two more Tigers went to s.Pz.Abt. 501 on 5 March, they could have been Dunkelgelb.

No more Tigers went to Africa.

David

Always have to be careful when discussing North Afrika...why? Because Dunkelgelb was introduced in Feb '43 and the final capitulation in Tunisia didn't happen until May. Introduction of Dunkelgelb made the Tropen schemes redundant. Two Tropen schemes were authorized, one from March '41-March '42 and the second from March '42 to Feb '43. The first scheme consisted of RAL 8000/7008 and the second RAL 8020/7027. Testors Model Master line provides for both schemes in enamels...not sure if an acrylic alternative is available. The Time photos that stik posted show the Tropen scheme...you can see the second color at the top corner of the superstructure front plate. The color contrast between the two colors in the Tropen scheme wasn't that high so it's very hard to detect in B/W photos.

Strangely enough I had never seen this kit until someone posted a picture of the box art the other day - looks like a nice kit.

I tend to concentrate on German builds from early WWII (Panzer I's and early StuGs) and also early German Panzer III's and Tiger I's etc going the way of the Eastern Front (lots of scope for weathering and chances of interesting subjects to be had on the Russian Front which is why I find myself drawn to that theatre of war).

This being the case I haven't built anything from North Africa, particulary DAK stuff but I reckon get a pad/pen or hook up the printer and do a bucketload of research on what other, very experienced modellers prefer to use for D/Braun colours (I've just Googled the very basic words 'Tamiya Dunkelbraun' now and there is LOADS out there i.e. paint recipes etc for DAK armour-imagine what's out there if you really tried)!

I'd be looking at Tamiya Acrylics and definately get a pot of MIG Gulf War Sand pigment - that stuff is great!

Best of luck my friend - make sure you blog your build or at the very least keep us updated with the odd photos.

All the best,

Ben  

I remembered that Life had some great color shots of a knocked out Tiger or two at El Guettar. Take a look at these photos and see what you think. Keep in mind color shift due to film type, but these were recently digitilized and are about as close as we can get 70 years later in photos. These are not photos that were digitally colored from B&W orginals, but orignal WWII era color film.

*** for personal use/discussion purposes***

and check out these land mines... I am presuming they are in Dunkelgelb and Braun so one can note the color differences...

I find this German site very useful.
As always on the internet - don't take the colour chips as 100% representations.
http://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/a_relaunch/wh_tarn-b.htm
Use the arrows at the bottom to scroll between different periods.
The DAK page is page 4 http://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/a_relaunch/wh_tarn-d.htm

Very Best Regards
Johan 

Dood, I appreaciate your kind words here. Your weathering advice was great and gives Alex the right info to work with for an Africa Tiger. You are very correct in the basis here is to have fun and enjoy your build. And your advice will work just the same on a Braun Tiger. The colors are very similar with the Braun being a bit darker, and (obviously by name) more brownish in tone. I am no Tiger expert, but I do like to read up on that beast and our AMPS chapter here currently is doing a Tiger Group Build and I have been caught up in the madness and enthusiasm of that GB. ( I am doing one of the elusive Olive Green ones) Yes Dunkelgelb is the color to use on German armor, from early 1943 on, and nearly all if the 1300+ Tigers built went to war in that color, at  least as the base color. An overall Dark Yellow Tiger gets him in the right ballpark, and is possible for a replacement tank after Feb 43. Thats the fun of reasearching a project. Often you'll turn up information that allows you to build something out of the norm that did exist.

Thanks for advice everyone

On a side note, I found this on the interwebs, would it be worth getting?

http://www.modelhobbies.co.uk/shop/interactive-weathering-afrika-korps-tanks-ak068-p-35118.html

Alex, I'll never pretend to know a fraction about this stuff as someione like stikpusher.  I follow his and others post religiously.

You did say "a nice model" not a "100% historically accurate model".  I think thats the right attitude for soemone less experienced than these experts.  Remember, the REAL prime directive is to HAVE FUN - while building a nice model.  The reward is the journey.  If you set your destination too ambitously, it will diminish or eliminate the fun.

I stand by my suggestion for a Dunkelgelb Tiger based on that context.  You can NEVER go wrong learning how to paint and shade that color, it is by far the most prevlaent base color for Gernam armor, and German armor is by far the most prevalent armor kit built.

By the way, your choice of a Tamiya kit for now is perfect too.  Very good fit, simple instructions, relatively low part count for such a good looking model.  I cut my teeth on Tamiya kits in the 80s and I still love them for a low stress fun build between more complex projects.

That being said, DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO!  Have fun.  Just take our comments as friendly suggestions.  Again - GOOD LUCK!

Two Tiger Tank Battalions were sent to North Africa, 501 and 504. 501 was sent in two increments with the 1st company going in November 1942 with it's Tigers in Braun RAL 8000, The 2nd company went over in Jan 1943 after helping in the occupation of Vichy France, with its Tigers supposedly painted in Olive green according to a "The Tiger Tanks" . 504 had its' Tigers in both solid Braun RAL 8000 or two tone like the Bovington Tiger in Braun RAL 8000 with a disruptive pattern of Graugrun RAL 7008. Theyy were sent to Africa beginning in Feb 1943. 

>> DAK Tigers look good in a basic Dunkelgelb (Dark Yellow).

An interesting question is, what color were the DAK Tigers.

Tigers weren't actually assigned to the DAK, they were owned by independent heavy battalions, so it's really an unanswerable question. Dunkelgelb wasn't in use yet, as Stikpusher pointed out.

They were supposed to be painted in one of the two Tropen schemes. The Tiger at Bovington museum was examined by experts and they say it had the first Tropen scheme. It's on this page, repainted in almost the same colours;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/triggerali/3847014438/

Since this is one of the last Tigers sent to Africa, it seems the second Tropen scheme wasn't used on them.

There are colour photos in the Life Magazine website showing one of the first Tigers sent, and it seems to have the same scheme. But B/W photos of tanks arriving at the docks seem to show a uniform colour. That has not been explained.

David

The first Tigers sent to Africa were in Braun, the DAK color, not Dunkelgelb. Some later were in Olive Green, according to some sources. Dunkelgelb was not a standard color until early 1943, after the Tigers that went to Africa had been built and shipped off for there.

DAK Tigers look good in a basic Dunkelgelb (Dark Yellow).  If you use Tamiya acryilcs, lighten the dark yellow a bit with flat white.  Some of the DAK tigers I've seen have a slightly more yellow appearance than Dunkelgelb.  Add a little flat yellow to "Yellow it up".   Some use a 50/50 mix of Dark yellow and Desert yellow.  It's not precise, just a matter of taste.

For a newbie, go easy on the weathering.  After you spray the main coat, lighten the color slighlty and very lighty ht panel centers and upper surface.  It's an easy way to replicate sun-fading.  You might want to do the turrest top and spaces on the upper hull even lighter.  It's sunny in the Desert!

Drybrushing can be fun and effective, go easy until you master it.  I'm ok at some, but overall drybrushing I have yet to master.  I've built about 150 armor kits.

Washes are an art all by themselves.  Don't do what I did, and try all the techniques right away.  Master a new one one every few kits.  A good one to start with is pinwashing around raised details.  I always start with the bottom of the hull, so I can get the "feel" of how the wash will flow before I commit to more visible surfaces.

One place it is pretty hard to screw up a wash is on a track run.  You can flood on a rust color after your main color dries.  It looks pretty good settig into all the cracks and crevices.

Do not wash with the same chemistry of your base coat.  I use acrylics and seal it with future for decaling.  Another future coat to seal the decals, then oil based washes thinned with turpenoid.  Next, a coat of Dull cote to kill the gloss.  Lastly pigments, sometimes a little drybrushing.

Pigments are pretty easy.  I'd just rubb on a little dry at first to "dust things up".

I've learned most of this through articles in FSM and on this forum.  I'm not the artist some of these guys are, but I truly enjoy learning from them.

Hope this helps.  Have fun with the kitty.