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Guys, I've been reading Allen R.Millett's 'The War For Korea 1950-1951' and he mentions during the first week of the North Korean invasion in the bitter fighting around Seoul of South Korean 'suicide squads' taking out a handful of T34s using grenades strapped to sticks of dynamite.
Questions:
1). Such a weapon would look I'd guess like a US WWII 'pineapple' grenade tied or strapped to one or more sticks of dynamite?
2). I'm assuming such a weapon would have been employed like the 'sticky bombs' in the movie 'Saving Private Ryan' -ie charging the tank, pulling the grenade pin, placing the bomb on the side or the running gear of the T34, and run like ?
3). What would a tank knocked out like this look like? I mean it's not the same as a hole punched in the side from a projectile or burned in like a shaped charge weapon. And I'm assuming the tank wouldn't catch fire from a HE explosion like this unless it was near the fuel tanks. Even at that the T34 being diesel powered I'd assume would not tend to burn like a gasoline/petrol tank. I'm guessing you'd have a shed track and maybe some running gear damage?
I've got a AFV Club T34/85 with the complete interior that I've kicked around the idea of building knocked out in a Korean War diorama. Did some research and it is the right version for a North Korean vehicle. Still have no idea exactly how I'd have the tank knocked out- US tank, bazooka, etc. Just trying to get some idea of what options would be out there.
Thanks guys in advance,
Cliff
"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen
I think the key word here is "suicide". Beyond knocking off a track or harming the optics, I can't imagine a single affect of dynamite with grenades. You gotta remember, a T-34 could sit through an artillery barrage and the dudes would be inside just feeling sorry for the footsoldiers outside. Only a direct hit from a very high caliber round would even have hopes of punching through the armor.
Roy Chow
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T26 has it right. The damage caused would be minimal. Just like the sticky bomb from SPR. Though the device you mention would not stick to the tank, unless they added something else to make it stick.
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The HG was the trigger for the dynamite. The concussion could possibly fracture a link in the track, damage the drive or road wheel enough to cause the track to bind. Such an explosion could also cause the track to jump off the sprocket much like that of a bike chain. It just takes a moment to put the tank in a vulnerable situation so other more destructive weapons could be employed.
There might not be any obvious damage externally, but something internal such as a gear spline could have been stripped rendering it useless to drive the track.
Gerald "Hawkeye" Voigt
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"Its not the workbench that makes the model, it is the modeler at the workbench."
The blast area would probably be blackened. Broken track is likely. The most probably attack location would be in a bottleneck, where the disabled vehicle would prevent followers from passing. The tank would probably be skidded toward the broken track.
I build 1/48 scale WW2 fighters.
Have fun.
Most likely the best thing that will happen is a "mobility kill". Damaging something on the suspension or runing gear to immobilize the tank. Even of the charge is wedged to ignite the external extra fuel cylinders, there will not be any operational damage to the tank.
Aside from air strikes, the T-34/85 was pretty much invincible in the opening stages of the Korean War until the new 3.5" bazooka arrived in theater. The older WWII bazookas and early 57mm recoiless rifles did not have the ability to pierce the frontal armor. Side shots were possible to kill, but that opportunity did not often materialize to the green troops of summer 1950. By August between the arrival of the heavier M26 Pershing, M4A3 76mm and the 3.5"bazookas, ground forces finally were able to halt the T-34s. And airpower took a good toll as well.
F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!
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N is for NO SURVIVORS...
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Thanks guys!
Millett does strongly point the importance of the word suicide here. I couldn't imagine that even a good sized HE charge would do much more than shed the track. I'd assumed he meant simply stopping the tank instead of destroying it but I wasn't sure and figured it would help to ask you guys with more knowledge than me.
Apparently some kills were scored from point blank shots with bazookas and 57mm recoiless rifles on the rear and side of the T-34s. I'd assume very few of the South Korean soldiers survived. Apparently some of the South Korean officers were well trained enough to set up kill zones for the advancing North but didn't have weapons able to punch though the armour of the T-34s making the whole effort pointless.
Final question - would there be damage to the road wheels here? Maybe not damage to the metal wheel but maybe to the rubber tire? To show a tank in this condition I'd assume I could do as Colin pointed out of having a track striped off, the vehicle skidded off the road into a ditch with a blackened area in the blast area?
Sorry guys for the stupid questions.
The most likely damage will be rubber tires blasted partially off the road wheels closest to the blast. Perhaps some blast damage to the metal portions of the road wheels and, if at the front of rear, to the fenders.
American suicide squads in Korea? I doubt it....
As far as "taking out a tank"...that means a lot of things...one grenade could take a tank out of the fight if it stopped it s mobility by breaking its track or suficiently damaged its fire-control optics---or broke the morale of the crew...contrary to Hollywood a tank need not have its turret blown off to "kill" it...In "theory" a tank crew could survive grenade attacks but enough TNT against the side of the hull could "in theory" concus the crew enough to cause death or serious injury...certainly possible to cause them not to want to continue the fight...
Did Korea era T-34's have rubber tires? I'll bet not. I'd also do a little research on that story. Now, when I think Korea knocked out tank, I wanna go M20 Super Bazooka!
Hey Stikpusher, thanks! That's what I needed to know.
Ok, I'll shut up the stupid questions- at least for tonight
bondoman Did Korea era T-34's have rubber tires? I'll bet not. I'd also do a little research on that story. Now, when I think Korea knocked out tank, I wanna go M20 Super Bazooka!
Yes they did teh rubber rimmed road wheels in Korea. Only during a portion of 1942 were the steel rimmed road wheels commonly seen. By 1944 they were hardly seen at all. Both solid and spoked type road wheels were seen on NKPA T-34s.
on this one below the rubber had been burned off
Manny: The suicide squads were desperate South Korean (ROK) troops not Americans. I'm assuming as the guys pointed out that 'stopping' the tank meant knocking a tread off not destroying it.
Bondoman: I'm not sure, that's why I'm asking for help I think this is the right version for the North Korean tank.
Stikpusher: Again thanks- the photos are great, going to copy them. If I ever get around to building the thing I'll probably just go with having the tank knocked out by anti-tank fire or one of the later war heavy bazookas.
stikpusher bondoman: Did Korea era T-34's have rubber tires? I'll bet not. Yes they did teh rubber rimmed road wheels in Korea. Only during a portion of 1942 were the steel rimmed road wheels commonly seen. By 1944 they were hardly seen at all. Both solid and spoked type road wheels were seen on NKPA T-34s.
bondoman: Did Korea era T-34's have rubber tires? I'll bet not.
Did Korea era T-34's have rubber tires? I'll bet not.
Nice piccies!
As I recall, this type of device was also used in another way that didn't just get a "mobility kill". You put the dynamite and grenade on the end of a pole several feet long, then use that to wedge the device in under the overhang of the T-34/85 turret. Exploding the device there would at least jam the turret, effectively disabling the tank, or could even lift the turret out of the turret ring. There was also some small chance that dynamite, in contact with the armor, could cause some "spalding" on the inside of the armor. It was during this period that the British HESH rounds were in use so "spalding" was well understood by then, though difficult to produce. Using the device this way disables the tank's main gun, not just a mobility kill. While I'm not sure that is what the ROK troops did that early in the war, I believe U.S. troops used the device this way in several cases.
Gene
Gene,
Thanks! I'd never heard of that.
That's one of the main reasons I like posting here, I learn something new everyday.
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