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Yes...
It is a late production Tiger I E...Most of the whitewashed ones I've seen were in such livery during the '43-'44 winter...not that many operational ones after the late summer of '44...
wbill76 Steve, If you're looking for inspiration, just look up at the top banner pic for the FSM site.
Steve, If you're looking for inspiration, just look up at the top banner pic for the FSM site.
Can anyone here definitively identify that tank???
What if I want to NOT build a Gruppe Fehrmann Tiger (whatever that is).
Well, you can't really, because it's essentially an Early Tiger.
Tiger E were old and battered by Winter 1944, and the logistical situation was so bad that crews might not have had time to whitewash them. I can't find a photo of one, whether because it didn't happen, or they didn't have film to play with, I don't know.
A grey turret on a Late Tiger seems very unlikely because they stopped using the grey base colour at the factory long before.
David
One problem with Tiger production is that it was time consuming and expensive. They say you could build 2 Panthers for every Tiger I. Think if the Germans gave up on their Tiger production and switched to Panthers earlier? Yah, it probably wouldn't have made much difference.
Eric
SMJmodeler Manstein's revenge: Your basic issue is that Tiger I's were rare at that stage of the war---mostly you saw Panthers and Tiger II's... Manny: Why did Tiger I production cease? Was the Tiger II a huge "upgrade" ... Was the Panther considered superior to the Tiger I? Were the Russian KV's and JS forcing the Germans to go bigger? Same thing with our M26?
Manstein's revenge: Your basic issue is that Tiger I's were rare at that stage of the war---mostly you saw Panthers and Tiger II's...
Manny: Why did Tiger I production cease? Was the Tiger II a huge "upgrade" ... Was the Panther considered superior to the Tiger I? Were the Russian KV's and JS forcing the Germans to go bigger? Same thing with our M26?
Also, the next generation of German tanks, the E series, were in part based on the Tiger II and Panther. It would have made sense to end Tiger I production.
I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so
On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3
You have to remember that the age of the Tiger I design was showing by 1944 especially in relation to Soviet armor advancements during the same time period...Tiger II had sloped armor and other improvements that made it a better all-around heavy tank design. The Panther was the replacement for the Pz IV and incorporated similar concepts of sloped armor and enhanced firepower with the longer 7.5cm gun. The only reason the Pz IV continued in production was the inability of the production capacity to supply enough Panthers to take their place. Kind of ironic when you consider it...the push/pull between quantity/quality resulted in a hybrid solution that satisfied neither conditions in the end.
BP Models
Manstein's revenge SMJmodeler: NOW I"M GETTING CONFUSED!!!... Let's get back to what I have to work with. AFV Tiger I Ausf E Late kit. What if I want to NOT build a Gruppe Fehrmann Tiger (whatever that is)...does that just totally blow the "gray turret plausible" idea? Your basic issue is that Tiger I's were rare at that stage of the war---mostly you saw Panthers and Tiger II's...
SMJmodeler: NOW I"M GETTING CONFUSED!!!... Let's get back to what I have to work with. AFV Tiger I Ausf E Late kit. What if I want to NOT build a Gruppe Fehrmann Tiger (whatever that is)...does that just totally blow the "gray turret plausible" idea?
NOW I"M GETTING CONFUSED!!!... Let's get back to what I have to work with. AFV Tiger I Ausf E Late kit.
What if I want to NOT build a Gruppe Fehrmann Tiger (whatever that is)...does that just totally blow the "gray turret plausible" idea?
Your basic issue is that Tiger I's were rare at that stage of the war---mostly you saw Panthers and Tiger II's...
Actually at this stage, you probably still saw more StuG III's and Pz Iv's then King Tigers.
Manstein's revenge Your basic issue is that Tiger I's were rare at that stage of the war---mostly you saw Panthers and Tiger II's...
SMJmodeler NOW I"M GETTING CONFUSED!!!... Let's get back to what I have to work with. AFV Tiger I Ausf E Late kit. What if I want to NOT build a Gruppe Fehrmann Tiger (whatever that is)...does that just totally blow the "gray turret plausible" idea?
If your building a late, then yes, no grey. The only Tigers in Grey were the very first ones.
Gruppe Fehrmann is simply the name of the unit. I believe it was one of several units formed in the dieing days of the war. I am assuming these tanks had come from training schools and were upgraded with Zimm and the late model running gear.
Byrden Actually, the Gruppe Fehrmann Tigers consisted of early turrets on their original early hulls. Only the wheels and tracks were upgraded to Late style. David
Actually, the Gruppe Fehrmann Tigers consisted of early turrets on their original early hulls. Only the wheels and tracks were upgraded to Late style.
Now that makes more sense. Would make a nice build.
Steve, the problem with that is as i mentioned before, the turret is not a late. It has the dustbin style cupole and psitol ports of an early. This looks like an old turret was fitted onto a new hull.
Gentlemen: Thank you very much for the input, expertise and evne photos!!!. This is one of the things I found so great about the forum...the wealth of knowledge and interests is so vast.
It seems more and more apparent to me that to stay in the plausible category the late will need to have zim', no whitewash, and could be three-color w/ gray turret...I DO LIKE THAT!!!
T26E4 That grey turret is one of the Kampfgruppe Fehrman Tigers. Subsequent photos have shown that it was no grey. And it was a specific, cobbled together unit -- no whitewash.
That grey turret is one of the Kampfgruppe Fehrman Tigers. Subsequent photos have shown that it was no grey. And it was a specific, cobbled together unit -- no whitewash.
From the looks of it, it was more than just the unit that was cobbled together. If i am not mistaken, thats a steel wheeled hull with a very early turret.
Ah, I see.
That decal sheet covers some Tigers that are well-photographed Tigers, but also some that are speculative. We don't have any photos of "C32", for example (you can see all the known photos thumbnailed at TIIF.DE.).
The Tiger with the grey turret is a speculative one. Its unit, Gruppe Fehrmann, had a handful of old second-hand Tigers, and Peddinghaus are speculating that they had an "F05", consisting of a hull and turret from two different vehicles with different paint.
This isn't impossible, but there are no photos of this "F05". Paint mismatches like this are rare, but I could find you one or two, such as this grey tank which is camouflaged with mud;
Roy Chow
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Byrden Why would the turret be grey?
Why would the turret be grey?
I found this on the net, I was referring to the middle one on the right. I also received a decal sheet from Bob Bailey that had the same scheme:
Byrden SMJ, I can't find a single photo of a Late Tiger with whitewash. All the known photos are at TIIF.DE David
SMJ, I can't find a single photo of a Late Tiger with whitewash. All the known photos are at TIIF.DE
I may add the whitewash to my mid and go with a three-color w/gray turret on the E late. Thanks for the website, it looks great...all in German though so I'm shooting in the dark as I poke around.
Manny/T26E4/Bish: Thanks for your expertise, I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge!
Bill: That Tiger right here on the forum page is great, but it's not what I have in mind. I thought a whitewash over a three color would be cool. Thanks for the input.
dupes: Thanks for the link, cool schemes! As you rummage the stash keep the Tiger I -Mid in mind for whitewash too. I may do 2 builds for T-man's Steel Cats. The E Late and the Mid. One will be whitewash, no zim, probably the Mid, The E may go gray turret with two-color (I posted a pic' in the GB thread). Thanks for your willingness to help. BTW still waiting to start our "conversation"about AMPS East.
SMJ - have yet to poke though all of my kit decals (I think I have every Tamiya and DML Late Tiger boxing?), but I did find you a whitewashed Tiger Late from Bison Decals. Look up set #35126, "To The Last Bullet #3". It's a mixed set of vehicles including what you're after in a ragged, rapidly fading scheme.
I suppose you could try this link as well:
http://www.bison-decals.com/35126.html
Beauty of that one is that you'd have left overs galore to replace the kit decals in all of those Tamiya kits you've got.
http://www.mycyclinglog.com/profile/dupes
Steve,
If you're looking for inspiration, just look up at the top banner pic for the FSM site.
Dressing up a late Tiger in whitewash isn't outside the realm of possibility IMHO.
The issue with Tiger IIs during the Ardennes campaign was there was no snow on the ground at the onset of the offensive. Snow didn't start falling until about Dec 20-22 and the jump off of the attack was Dec 16.
To the OP: whitewash was a unit level decision. The fact is most Tiger Is were out of action by late '44.
Pics of white washed Tigers don't seem ten a penny. But i have a pic of a Command Tiger from early 44 which looks white, and theres at least one Tiger II from early 45 that was white washed. I don't see no reason why they wouldn't be if the situation allowed, but i don't think it was a given fact that it was always done. Just look at the Tiger II's during the ardennes campaign.
Tiger I production ended in the Aug/Sep of '44 timeframe so any that survived could have received a winter whitewash...It would also have had zimmerit on it and probably been in an overall dark yellow color or dark yellow base w/ camo applied "in the field"...
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Let's get back to what I have to work with. AFV Tiger I Ausf E Late kit.