Panzers in France (Model completed)

I'm still a little fuzzy about it, but I do believe they were in a two-tone color early on. Too bad you were a little late on this, otherwise you could have gotten into the Blitz in the West GB. It's over, but lots of great info. If you have some spare time, check through the thread.

Thanks Tigerman that is perfect. I knew there was a French campaign group build on the forums but couldn't remember the name of it. 

There have been a few discussions on this. I believe the current opinion, supported by some good referance material, is as tigerman says. The colours are hard if not impossable to distinguish in B&W photos. And the kit companies still haven't caught up yet.

2-tone scheme was the standing ordered scheme until July 1940 and BOF ended in June, so the 2/3 grey, 1/3 brown would be appropriate. Even in pristine just-painted-and-no-dust photos of vehicles outside the factories/depots makes it hard to pick out the scheme. Through in variable lighting, dust, camera, film, etc. conditions of stuff in the field and it disappears entirely. Color photos are avaialble of vehicles in the field for BOF showing the 2-tone clearly though.

This isn't a great example, but this Panzerjager I shows the two-tone off on the shield prominently. i think it's easy to see how in a B/W photo the camo would get lost.

bill, not sure if you mentioned it before. Do you happen to know the RAL colours used. I assume the grey is the standard Pz Grey, just not sure about the brown.

According to Tony Greenland, my best guess is RAL 8002 signalbraun, which he says was used with RAL 7021 schwartzgrau, especially pre 1939.

There has certainly been a largish amount of "toing and frowing" about the German two-tone scheme up through JULY 1940!

I would echo previous that looking over the recent past group-build thread on the Blitz in France should be informative. That and other threads on this site, Armorama, Track-Link, etc., have flogged this one nicely! 

With a few exceptions, I think that most tanks and larger vehicles which were actually physically in service by say JAN 1940 would have been painted per that standing regulation of 1/3 dunkelbraun RAL 45 over dunkelgrau RAL 46.  I think vehicles which went into major rear-area rebuild could have been repainted in R-46 only during the earlier part of the Blitz - that's of course only my opinion and a guess based on numerous reads and discussions...  While the braun/grau regs were in effect to 30 JUL 1940, there seems some evidence that this reg was increasingly vacated in practice as the Blitz went on, and eventually simply became formalized by the all-dunkelgrau RAL 46 reg posted end of JUL 40. So you do have some choices...

About those colors...  Dunkelgrau RAL 46 was apparently renamed Dunkelgrau RAL 7021 after 1940, according to T. Jentz and H. Doyle.  So, from this, you can use your "standard" dunkelgrau as the grau base color.

The brown seems to be somewhat more challenging...  Per Jentz and Doyle, the "specified" brown was Dunkelbraun RAL 45...    I am not sure, but IIRC, RAL 45 was NOT "Signalbraun" (RAL 8002).  This dunkelbraun RAL 45 was later renamed dunkelbraun RAL 7017... It should also not be confused with the later "schokoladenbraun" or "rotbraun" RAL 8017 which was used from early 1943 on in German "tri-color camo schemes".

So what brown WAS RAL 45?  From what I've seen around the web, this was a darker brown then that signalbraun.  So, when I needed this a little bit back, I added a little black to my Testor's signalbraun to darken it a bit!  But that was my non-expert approach and I think a guy could go different ways with his/her "dunkelbraun" and still be fairly "safe"!

Bob

What a can of worms you opened Bob. LOL I'm not up on my RAL's so I'll leave this open to some lively debate.

Thanks for the help guys! Looks like I have another bottle of brown paint to track down. 

Here are the color chips from Jentz and Doyle if it helps you out.

And how they looked in an actual color pic from the period as reference.

RAL numbers weren't used to designate the colors prior to 1940, they were just designated as "Nr." so don't get too uptight about "RAL45" and "RAL46" as those are totally different colors. To create the duneklbraun, I used Testors Schokoladenbraun straight out of the bottle as it's a pretty close match to the color chip you see above IMHO.

Some great info there guys, thanks a lot. I had read some where that RAL7016 Anthracitgrau was used as the grey colour in this scheme. Going off the info you guys have given, clearly it wasn't. In that case, do you happen to know what this colour was used for.

No idea Bish...the scheme that was ordered prior to the two-tone 1938 scheme was a three tone that didn't include any sort of gray...but perhaps the Anthracitgrau was a converted color from some other use? The RLM used its own color designations for aircraft schemes, maybe it was a color also used by ground forces for some other purpose? Germans loved to label everything so the fact that there is a designation meant it was used for "something" at "some time".

RAL numbers come from

quote[ In 1927 the German Reichsausschuß für Lieferbedingungen und Gütesicherung" (State Commission for Delivery Terms and Quality Assurance) invented a collection of 40 colors under the name of "RAL 840". Prior to that date manufacturers and customers had to exchange samples to describe a tint, whereas from then on they would rely on numbers.

In the 1930s the numbers were changed uniformly to four digits and the collection was renamed to "RAL 840 R" (R for revised)....]quote - from the current posting on Wikipedia.org ref RAL... 

While I don't in general suspect wiki... of being particularly authoritative on most things, they probably have this simple factoid pretty straight?

The colors we've been kicking around - dunkelbraun RAL Nr 45, dunkelgrau RAL Nr 46 - are historic realities. Some sites use just the "Nr." and others add on the "RAL" when speaking of them...  I've seen it both ways.   Using "RAL" just acknowledges the reality that those colors were standardized and assigned listing numbers (Nr.) under the Reichsausschuss...starting from 1927. "Nr.45 dunkelbraun" is a specific formal name and ID for a standard color under a specific system (RAL) -  "Nr.45" otherwise means nothing, if not in the context of the system which established it! 

So, by me, it seems intellectually and technically honest to use that full designation RAL Nr. xx, when speaking of an earlier RAL standard color just as we seem to have no trouble using "RAL 7028 dunkelgelb" instead of just 7028 dunkelgelb when speaking of a post-1940 RAL color...  but that's just me!

And the old, 2-digit RAL numbers we are kicking around here were changed to 4-digit numbers starting in the late 1930's... the colors did not change. 

As tigerman offered above... opening cans of worms.  Ugh!

As to what those colors looked like... well, the J & D scans have frequently been offered up as the "holy grail" in this subject.  Not all agree.  IF you look, for example, at the supposed "signalbraun" which Testor's ModelMasters offers, that surely is far from being "nearly-indistinguishable" from any version of "schwarzgrau" or "dunkelgrau" or even "anthrazit-grau" which any paint maker has supplied... unlike what is clearly suggested by those scans.   

And therein lies a little food for thought, by me:  it's all possible that Testors' is way way off - not just a wee bit, but WAY so, with both their "signalbraun and any other "dunkelbraun" they offer, or...!  So, for those who read any of many sites which identify the brown used in that pre- JULY 1940 2-tone scheme as being "signalbraun" (and many do...) rather then "dunkelbraun Nr.45"... what do you do?

"yous pays your money and yous places your bets", gents!   It's a model. Build it. Paint it. Enjoy it - however you do!

Bob

wbill76

Here are the color chips from Jentz and Doyle if it helps you out.

And how they looked in an actual color pic from the period as reference.

RAL numbers weren't used to designate the colors prior to 1940, they were just designated as "Nr." so don't get too uptight about "RAL45" and "RAL46" as those are totally different colors. To create the duneklbraun, I used Testors Schokoladenbraun straight out of the bottle as it's a pretty close match to the color chip you see above IMHO.

 

What?

No rust on the tracks either. Sorry Manny boy.

Here are a couple shots of the Tamiya Panzer II French Campaign I did for the GP. I used Tamiya XF-63 German Grey, lighten with XF-12 JN Grey, and XF-64 Red Brown, lighted with XF-57 Buff.

More worms for the fodder...

If you change to the German spelling of Anthrazitgrau, you will find a lot of entries.  This colour was used on German ships of both world wars.  How it ended up considered as a panzer colour, I've no idea. 

The document Heeresmitteilung 1940, Nr. 864. seems to be the key, as this was the order that ceased the early two tone scheme to the single grey scheme.  Assuming it names the grey that had been used with the brown (and whether or not it was a different grey altogether), then the mystery would be solved.

regards,

Jack

Jack, thanks for that. The only place i had heard of it was in the xtracolour paint range. A search of the RAL colour they use shows up nothing in relation to WW2.

Speaking of can of worms, not French Campaign related but there's also the two tone scheme for the DAK vehicles.

panzerbob01

As to what those colors looked like... well, the J & D scans have frequently been offered up as the "holy grail" in this subject.  Not all agree.  IF you look, for example, at the supposed "signalbraun" which Testor's ModelMasters offers, that surely is far from being "nearly-indistinguishable" from any version of "schwarzgrau" or "dunkelgrau" or even "anthrazit-grau" which any paint maker has supplied... unlike what is clearly suggested by those scans.   

And therein lies a little food for thought, by me:  it's all possible that Testors' is way way off - not just a wee bit, but WAY so, with both their "signalbraun and any other "dunkelbraun" they offer, or...!  So, for those who read any of many sites which identify the brown used in that pre- JULY 1940 2-tone scheme as being "signalbraun" (and many do...) rather then "dunkelbraun Nr.45"... what do you do?

Paint manufacturers (Testors is particularly guilty of this) create their own paint formulations and names at will based on various factors/influences to create "their" brand/shade of paint...sometimes those have bearing on accurate names and colors, sometimes not. Testors has names for some of their paints that are complete fabrications (like Afrika Khakibraun) that sound nice and authentic but really are just descriptive. Modeler's love to create their own terms as well and errors in terminology get picked up and repeated in print and also online depending...so some terms like 'signalbraun' get into the lexicon but end up meaning different things to different people.

The reason the J&D scans are frequently offered up as the holy grail is simple...they are based off a set of original pre-war RAL paint chips in well-preserved condition and J&D worked directly with RAL to research and recreate the colors faithfully in the chips they produced in their work. J&D also work only off original source material  in the original German which from a historical research standpoint grants them a degree of credibility and reliability that is often not present in other sources that rely on 2nd or 3rd hand secondary sources. It doesn't make them infallible but it does make them authoritative. Ultimately thtat's the determining factor when it comes down to which source should be taken over another when there's a conflict or disagreement between different authors or sites.

Given that those J & D scans are NOT evenly-tinted nor uniform across the image in any way, I guess I just remain unsure as to which portion - if any - of the scan best represents the putative colors of the chips that were scanned!   In terms of color representation SCANs presented on almost any computer display screen are seldom very compelling.  For example, one can scan a dollar - bill - the display image is really not very compelling on most equipment folks might have access to. It'll certainly look like a bill with the pattern and all, but the colors will be off.  You CAN, on the other hand, PRINT that scan onto proper paper with a high-res color laser printer and get a seriously good-looking dollar-bill!  A print of the scan MAY be more comparable to seeing the chip then would seeing its image on the back-lit screen!

What would be much more compelling to me then any scans would be for someone to make the paint...  I am sure that those old RAL standards came with pigment formularies - otherwise they would mean zilch as any sort of practical production standard for a product that was going to possibly be made by multiple vendors (barring of course that they ref'd, say, some spectrographic analysis that used standard lab instruments and techniques...). !

I would bet that there was one or more established formulae - available to a paint manufacturer who wanted to make the officially-acceptable dunkelgrau or dunkelgelb or signalbraun or...  and sell it to the Wehrmacht -  and no, I doubt that this was done by merely submitting sample cans of paint and arguing with the inspector over whether that was really the specified color or not!

Do you know whether anyone has bothered pursuing this angle or approach?  Seeking some documentation on the pigment formulae used to create the color?  I'm sure that these formulae are neither still protected under any patent (after 80 years?) nor any sort of industrial, let alone state, secret! 

WAIT!  Isn't that what Testor's has claimed they have done - get the data on the paints?

It would seem sort of obvious that a paint manufacturer would get those chips and try to match the colors on them, as versus flogging around trying to just guess the color...!  But, like they say, common sense is not as common nor as sensible as sometimes thought to be!

Bob

Would the two tone paint scheme have also applied to Czech tanks absorbed into the German army?

This photo clearly shows the duo-tone scheme.

There was a Five page thread on the subject over at Armorama, our very own wbill76 was there.  I think everyone involved  acknowledged the existence of the document order for brown over grey camou.  Very heated debate though on the wording and the extant to which it was followed.  Opinions varied from all tanks were painted thusly (with no room for single grey colour during the Polish and French campaigns) to some still believing a good pecentage were repainted without the brown.

Another good read: http://www.missing-lynx.com/panzer_facts.htm

regards,

Jack

panzerbob01

Do you know whether anyone has bothered pursuing this angle or approach?  Seeking some documentation on the pigment formulae used to create the color?  I'm sure that these formulae are neither still protected under any patent (after 80 years?) nor any sort of industrial, let alone state, secret! 

WAIT!  Isn't that what Testor's has claimed they have done - get the data on the paints?

It would seem sort of obvious that a paint manufacturer would get those chips and try to match the colors on them, as versus flogging around trying to just guess the color...!  But, like they say, common sense is not as common nor as sensible as sometimes thought to be!

J&D state in the same volume where they produce the chips that this is what they did...with the small caveat of replicating a matt color on a glossy paper print as a small distortion. As to how the various paint manufacturers come up with their paint formulations, there are many variables at work there...especially if they developed their formula some time ago (as Testors has for example, their MM line of enamel paints is virtually unchanged from a decade ago or longer) and don't have any kind of economic motivation to change their formula now. (Think about it, they can actually sell MORE paint if you have to mix your own combo than if they changed their existing formula with all the costs/production mods associated with that process). That's why newer manufacturers, particularly those providing acrylic paints, often have different shades under the same names but which tend to be more accurate depending on the state of information available when they devised their formulas vs. older established brands who have no reason to change.

jgeriatric

That is a lot of great info guys and thanks for the advice. This is what I've done with it, hope you like it.

Looks like you got a good balance between the colors and produced a good dusty effect! The lighting makes it look harsher than it is I'm sure (going by the sharp shadows). Direct lighting can do that depending on the camera setup you're using. Nicely done!

As none of us were there and any photo reproduction of a color may or may not be accurate, if it looks good to you then it's perfect.  Your Pz II looks good to me.  Job well done.