1945 German camo schemes

i have started a wip it is titled Dragon Nightfighting panther WIP if you wish to view

Thank for the help guys.

Also does anybody know how many tracks the panther had on each side of the tank the kit does not say

Thnaks for that info stik. I may have to try and pick up that book. I'll have to see what the panzer tracts book says about it as well. I know it does include the night fighting Panther.

The Concord Panther book has about 1- 1 1/2 pages on the Panther and IR equipment. I am just recalling off the top of my head, but essentially there were two set ups. "Solution A" which was just the TC having the IR device, and "Solution B", which is what the Dragon kit depicts, with the Driver, Gunner, and TC each having seperate IR devices. But where Dragon goofed was in giving their G kit the "Solution B" set up. "B" was used on older rebuilt Panthers that had the drivors visor glacis flap and binocular gunners site that could have one side for day monocular site and the other for the IR device.

I had read that the driver didn't have have any device and he relied on commands from the commander. And i can't say i have seen any pics that show anything added to the drivers position.

I think im going to go ahead and use it because it looks very plausible. What I mean is that it looks like it was taken from another panther then welded onto the hull.

All I've read about the drivers sights says that it was never used but I'm not 100% sure why. The only picture I can see which I have confidence in being right is this

Other than the Ir sight everything looks like a normal G to me

The little info on the Night Fighting Panthers that I have read says that the kit set up is not quite accurate. The set up they have for the mantlet, was seen on earlier Panthers with the binocular gunners site holes and not the monocular site as on the G. The set up for the driver is a bit more of a question mark. Again, it was more easily mounted on the D and A Panthers with the drivers vision flap rather than on the G as the kit depicts.

well i took your guys advice and instead painted the lens smoke colored. However i couldn't resist the red and put a little dab in the center.

since there has been so much interest I am considering Turing this into a wip what do you think?

one more thing, the kit included sights for the gunner,commander and driver but ive only seen it for the commander is this historically accurate?

If you mean the telescope device, thats the device for picking up the IR light. Its only the liught source itself that has the black cover.

Amazing what you can find with a lot of digging

BIOS misc 66 text.pdf

A British report from 1945 about the equipment

Phil

Also found out the only unit which seems to have been issued the Panther with IR was Panzer Division Müncheberg, I cant find 100% proof anyone else had them issued

Just to confuse us all a bit more have a look at the link. Ignoring the model photos there is what looks like an original IR device in what looks like a museum with a clear lens!

[View:http://www.tankhunters.net/articulos/A1nacht.htm#:600:0]

Phil

stikpusher

Here are the white light and IR headlights on a M113. The technology and design dates back to at least the 1950s. When you take it apart, it is a standard headlight covered by the IR Lens. But I never did look thru the IR lens to see if it was transluscent at all. However, when it was operating at night, no visible light can be seen coming out by the Mk.I eyeball, unless you have some sort of night vision device, either active IR or image intensification type.

I don't know who manufactures the filters for the US miltary, but in theory they should not transmit any visible light.

Presumably, the filters on military vehicles would be considered Near Infrared Bandpass Filters.

http://www.reflexusa.com/inirfi.html

Stik, thats exactly the same set up on the 432. Two lights on each side, one for the IR and one for normal light. In fact the 432 is almost identical to the 113, even down to the fact that unlike other British AFV's, it doesn't have a name, just its number.

I'm not sure if they were used on the night fighters but I myself have always fancied the "Disk ambush" and classic "ambush" camoflages.

Here are the white light and IR headlights on a M113. The technology and design dates back to at least the 1950s. When you take it apart, it is a standard headlight covered by the IR Lens. But I never did look thru the IR lens to see if it was transluscent at all. However, when it was operating at night, no visible light can be seen coming out by the Mk.I eyeball, unless you have some sort of night vision device, either active IR or image intensification type.

The  ( 5 inch ?) IR glass spotlight filters I've examined appear black but when held up to a bright white light allowed a very, very dim visible red to filter through.

Ye, the 432's i used to drive did. It was a removable lens cover that went over the front lights. When taken off and held upto light, you could see light throiugh it, it wasn't a dense black. But once fitted, it just looked black.

As you say, a red filter would just be, well red. Like putting a red filter on a tourch (flashlight to you guys).

Red would project visible red light... I think the folks who are arguing about this stuff have never worked with any IR equipment. Bish, on UK AFVs that you have crewed, do the IR projector lamps have a black lens?

stikpusher

I would presume that the IR Spot projector lens should be black, just like on post war IR projectors.

I'll second this. I don't see any reason they would be red.

To have an IR projector, there has to be either a lens or bulb that projects light in the IR wavelength. On postwar vehicles those are black- the properties of IR light are not variable and do not change. A smoke or clear lens will project visible light.

Info is a bit thin on the ground but I have found the links below

Nightfighting Panthers.htm

german infrared night vision devices infrarot scheinwerfer.htm

But I have seen discussions on a few forums which argue endlessly. The one thing they seem to agree on is the info I gave above

Phil

thanks Mitch. Were there any other panzer divisions that had the IR scope equipped?

Looking at what I can find out the outside of the IR lens looks to be smoke coloured and the center clear. The camo I've been looking for and I'm still not sure, Form the history the night fighting panthers where used first in Hungary in Feb 1945 with the 11th Panzer-Armee

I would lean towards ambush pattern. In the black and white photo it appears to my eyes (not as good as they used to be) there are the distinct dots on the front of the turret and front hull, of the ambush scheme.

The pics of the model show ambush scheme it it comes up great.  I have a Panther G spare I was going to kit out in night fighting using the Voyager parts. Thanks Phil, for the info on the stowage box, I wasn't aware I would need to modify this to make it correct.

I would presume that the IR Spot projector lens should be black, just like on post war IR projectors.

Sorry for my horrible grammar. What I meant to say "what color should i paint the infrared spot lights?

also i have found a camouflage pattern what is your guys opinion?

www.warandtactics.com/.../panzer-v-panther-camouflage-patterns-earl-grey-collection

(sixth picture down)

When the infa red is on are is the lens really red?