Basecoat colour for a whitewashed Pz IV in Kharkhov '43 (LAH Division):

Cheers Jack,

I'll read that properly after lunch! Good stuff!

JohnWebb - The build represents a LAH (Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler) Pz. IV.

Any historical info you can share on their background and tank colours in early '43 on the Eastern Front?

Cheers guys - All this help and guidance is very much appreciated!

Ben  

An interesting thread (with photos) found at missing-lynx:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1298513815/Panzer+IV+Ausf.G+Decal+vs+Reality+--+Help!

regards,

Jack

Cheers SMJ,

Righto - it's ATX's Pz. IV! Sorry dude!

You are right - normally I wouldn't go back and start work on a completed build but I rushed that SiG a bit and feel it needs revisiting.

A bit 'bland' imo:

I'd have left it had I not seen a recent blog somewhere where someone built this SiG and whitewashed it - it was stunning. I really want to inject some life into my build as it's a bit 'stale'. I've got both variants of the AK Chipping Solutions and think this would benefit from some TLC and a sensibly aplied whitewash. Plus this Pz. IV kit looks excellent and as I havent done a white on basecoat style whitewash before I'd really want to get the method sorted so I'd be confident enough to cover this IV in white!

wbill's method of basecoating white and adding grey over the top in the form of washes/drybushing/normal painting like a sort of reverse effect works well. I used that method on the white parts of my Leningrad Panzer III N which turned out well so I'll figure it out!

I loved building this Pz. III! I know it's not a 'proper' whitewash but it worked well.

I'm again tempted by the grey basecoat. You mention the loss of contrast when whitewashing over DY and I love the look of a grey whitewashed build.

Decisions eh! Have you seen the link to bill's blog that I posted earlier in this thread?

Cheers buddy,

Ben

Hinksy:  To give proper credit, that Panzer #215 posted a few responses back is DoogsATX...a fine build.  wbill76 nailed it with the contrast thing.  I am a real fan of washes (as I wrote to you earlier) and I found (on my current Tiger Mid) that when I used my typical colors arsenal the white camo and the dunkelgelb grabbed the colors equally, as you would expect, and I was VERY disappointed that I lost the contrast that I liked so much in the original paint job and chipping effects using the AK fluid.  I had to go back (more than once) and add white oil washes, of different dilutions, OVER the areas of white camo until I was happy with the look.  This was a step I expected to do anyway but it would have been later on when I was applying the local washes.

I guess my main advice (if you go with the dunkelgelb) would be is that you need to really discern the level of white, or the amount of wear,  you want to depict. For a more white look I'd keep your initial washes (I like the word filter) to be in the cooler color ranges and keep it limited and very thin, on the dunkelgelb...heavier on the white.  For a more worn overall look , I'd use a VERY thin initial overall wash of raw umber and then add a second of the same color over the dunkelgelb only.  Thin washes REALLY help achieve the effect you want with a lot of control...and don't be afraid to try a local thin pure white wash!  It'll bleed over into some areas you may not like and you'll probably think you've ruined your model when it's wet but hang in there and wait until it dries completely to really see what you think.  It's my opinion that the real stuff would have been diluted by the elements and would run like that anyway.

I personally don't like to go back and "fix" previous builds but if want to try the whitewash on the SiG first I think that's a great idea.

Good Luck, and be sure to post pic's!!!

Thanks for the input guys,

Having taken all the information presented so far on-board I'm probably going to go for the DY basecoat.

Another factor I'm taking into consideration is my decision to go back to the Cyber-Hobby SiG 33 that I built for the Pz III GB not so long ago. It's painted in a fairly boring German Grey and although the build is immaculate I didn't really give the painting and weathering the attention that I usually do on my builds SO as a result I'm going to use it as a test bed for the new AK chipping fluids I've invested in as I want to whitewash it. I'm not intending on using it as a permanent test bed but if things go wrong in any way with the cheap SiG 33 then it wouldn't be so much of a gut-wrencher than damaging that stunning Pz. IV when it's built as it's a great loking build!

I'm thinking that by doing this I'll:

• Get a chance to pratice with the two types of chipping soloutions made by AK
• Have a whitewashed build with a grey basecoat in my cabinet (the SiG)
• Have a whitewashed build with a Dunkelgelb basecoat in my cabinet (the Pz. IV)

I'll be asking some questions on the ways to obtain the best results from this AK chipping stuff. I know Andy Deafpanzer amongst many others have used it to great effect!

Thanks lads,

Ben

Rick,

IV-G production ran for a good period beginning in June '42 and only vehicles designated for 'Tropen' theaters would have been painted in the Tropen scheme at the factory or depots. Granted that the 'Tropen' theaters included areas in southern Russia and the Caucasus and some vehicles were diverted from N. Africa to the Eastern Front at various periods before the DY cutover so there's no denying that 'Tropen' painted vehicles did end up there as the photo evidence supports...the Tropen schemes were two-tone though and not monotone. However there were plenty of Pz Gray IV-Gs that were also produced and photographed. Trojca's reference on the F1/F2/G has several clear photos for example of IV-Gs in gray as well as white-washed over gray.

Hi Ben ..Interesting thoughts here, I`m a little bit on the fence with the DY as a base coat just because of the date of the battle ...What might really be more plausible is the Afrika Korp colors. I`ve even read somewhere that no PanzerIV Gs were painted dark gray but were painted in the tropical colors right from the start . Don`t ask me where I read it but I remember it had me thinking.. This might be why we see quite a few Gs with what looks to be a camo scheme in late 1942 pictures.

thought I`d throw that in to confuse you even more .

Rick

Ben,

Main issue you're going to have with doing a whitewash over a DY finish is one of color contrasts and ensuring that the DY 'peeks through' sufficiently...just takes more work since the Pz Gray is such a darker color. Give it a shot, you've got to keep stretching those legs after all!

Cheers guys,

All input appreciated and nice build SMJ - they are the markings I'm opting for too.

Personally I prefer the look of a whitewashed Pz Grey build but I'm planning to go back to my Cyber-Hobby SiG33 (built earlier this yer) sooner rather than later which is painted grey and give that a 'makeover' with a whitewash which means there'll be a space for a whitewashed DY build?

I'm honestly stumped right now! From what I've read on here it does seem that a DY basecoat could be the way to go. What are the problems with whitewashing over DY, SMJ?

Either way I'm looking forward to trying out the AK Chipping Solutions. I've heard great things!

Ben

Asked this very same question when I built this kit last year and ended up going with dunky for the base. Think I could have done a better job with the "snow", but here's the end result...

Hinksy:  As usual, I'm totally useless when it comes to the historical accuracy part of your question...BUT from the practical side I have whitewash camo'd several German vehicles with the Panzer Gray base coat and it is FAR easier to pull it off convincingly than the Dunkelgelb basecoat...Soooo...if this is your first effort (and it sounds like Gray is plausible) I'd go that route. 

If you'd like to have me expand on why I feel the gray is easier I'd be glad to share, let me know, cheers!

BTW:  I used AK's Heavy Chipping Effects for my winter camo' finish on my Tiger over in Steel Cats...it was my first experince with the stuff and I LOVE IT!  The control of the amount and location of wear and chipping is SPECTACULAR!!

Bish,

They were literally brand-new tanks that had been shipped directly to the front as near as can be discerned. While the order to implement the DY had an effective date that was the 'official' date, if factories received the paint stocks prior to that date they implemented the DY base coat as soon as practical so there isn't a hard/fast rule on exactly when the cutover from Pz Gray would have occurred as a result. Also have to remember that units like LAH received preferential treatment when it came to receiving new equipment so they would have the latest and greatest in terms of the long-gun Pz IVs as replacement or strength replenishment vehicles as a matter of course.

Cheers guys,

Great stuff! I've already printed off your blog, Bill! It will be most helpful as it seems there'll be a few instruction issues to contend with!

Ben :-)

Bill, would the DY vehicles have reached the front line soon enough to have been in service in Feb/March 43. This seems a bit quick off the block. Or were this units hastly equipped with new vehicles just prior to the battle.

Ben,

Since the kit was released the evidence seems pretty clear that the Pz IV Gs that were in service with the units that DML has provided markings for in that kit were shipped directly from the factory in DY basecoat and not panzer gray. They were brand-new and may even have received their whitewash at the factory/depot level as there are photos showing them entrained with a nearly pristine WW finish vs. a hasty crew-applied job in the field. The beauty of the hobby is that new info is always coming to light and over time things change. Pz IV G's were produced and shipped with the base coat of Panzer Gray so you could conceivably go either way but if you want to be accurate for the units/markings provided, my vote would go for the DY base coat based on what is now known. HTH!

Ben: which battle for Kharkov are planning to build the Asf.G for...there were four different battles.

from Wikipedia: During World War II, Kharkiv was the site of several military engagements. The city was captured and recaptured by Nazi Germany on 24 October 1941; there was a disastrous Red Army offensive that failed to capture the city in May 1942; the city was successfully retaken by the Soviets on 16 February 1943, captured for a second time by the Germans on 15 March 1943 and then finally liberated on 23 August 1943. Seventy percent of the city was destroyed and tens of thousands of the inhabitants were killed. Kharkiv, the third largest city in the Soviet Union, was the most populous city in the Soviet Union captured by the Germans, since in the years preceding World War II, Kiev was by population the smaller of the two.

It's possible the undercoat on some armour was similar to that of the type usd by the DAK. 

Army Group South is associated with the Kharkhov battle, and some units were using tropical colours already in the spring of 1942 as put forth here:  www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer-colors-1934-1945.htm

regards,

Jack

If memory serves, the battle of Karkov took place in Feb/March 43. Thats about the time the 3 colour scheme was introduced. So i would go for grey. This would be to soon for vehicles to have appeared in the 3 colour scheme.