Modern 11th Panzer Division?

Thanks, Stikpusher;
A friend was looking at that first picture and said he wanted to do a T1 T2 and the Leopard 2 all with the same insignia.

And thank you for these new reference pictures, very usefull!

Very Best Regards
Johan

You are looking for that insignia in WWII German tanks in photos?

Hello,
Interesting thread.  have seen the pictures before but in a completely different context.
Anyone who could help me with some references to WWII pictures where the insignia can be seen?

Best Regards
Johan

Bish

I thought that about Rommel myself Tankluver. But then i remembered that Rommel commanded the 7th Pz Div. It was called the Ghost Div because of the way he commanded it. This insignia was used by the 11th Pz Div.

It got called the ghost division because neither the allies or the germans knew where the 15th panzer regiment was during the French campaign when it was with Rommels 7th Panzer Division.  It seem to everywhere it wasn't supposed to be.

The Zusatzsymbol on those tanks is not a Nazi symbol so it is allowed.  The 'ghost' was acquired by the 15th Panzer Regiment in 1940 and carried over to the 11th Panzer Divison when the 15th Panzer Regiment was transferred from the 5th Panzer Divison to make up the armoured core when the 11th was formed in August 1940.  They carried it on their vehicles from 1941 to 1945.

By the way it was against the law in Nazi Germany to be a member of the Nazi party if you were in the Heer until late in the war.  Only the SS were members.

Lucky you were in the West. In the DDR in 1977 it was mostly steam power. I actually got pretty close and got the look from quite a few crew. But I'm guessing I had a follower anyhow and they knew who I was.

Yeah, railheading armor is lots of fun. Especially in Germany with their electric trains. Watch out for those overhead lines. 

Went out to Buchenwald when I was in Weimar. I tripped onto a big railroad yard where MBTs were being offloaded from railroad cars. Dozens of the things.

NO WAY was I getting out the Nikon though.

stikpusher

Nah, no worries about me blowing you up as elite for your studies. I do find your thesis location to be most unusual. Not exotic, but due to the time and place definitely not the usual. 

A lot of those places that you named have changed so much. Rhein Main AFB in Frankfurt was being turned back over to the Germans when I last passed thru there coming off R&R in 2005. It was not the same as when I went thru there in 1984 in and out of Germany during REFORGER. 

I have been finding more and more websites with all sorts of stuff about the Cold War and Germany. Those names you mention (and so many more) are heavy with history to many a GI for generations and decades. And thank God that it never did go hot there...

But it makes for great modeling subjects.

 

No pictures or proof.  Just an old service story. 

Nah, no worries about me blowing you up as elite for your studies. I do find your thesis location to be most unusual. Not exotic, but due to the time and place definitely not the usual. 

A lot of those places that you named have changed so much. Rhein Main AFB in Frankfurt was being turned back over to the Germans when I last passed thru there coming off R&R in 2005. It was not the same as when I went thru there in 1984 in and out of Germany during REFORGER. 

I have been finding more and more websites with all sorts of stuff about the Cold War and Germany. Those names you mention (and so many more) are heavy with history to many a GI for generations and decades. And thank God that it never did go hot there...

But it makes for great modeling subjects.

The Luftwaffe did name the wing after Hartmann.

It's a nice topic.

I am on the same look-into as you. The post war airforce is pretty interesting to me.

I spent a month in the DDR in 1979 working on my batchelor's thesis in archictecture on the Bauhaus. Don't blow me up as some "elite".

First of all, I thank and respect those who served in Germany in the Cold War. I saw the other sides forces in a big way while I was over there.

So, I like the subject of NATO a lot. 

Not an armor guy. 

My interest would be in units, deployments, bases, exercises, etc.

Maybe the wrong question in a model builders forum. But gosh, Fulda Gap, Berlin Brigade. All very interesting stuff, not well covered AFAIK in books because it wasn't "Hot".

Whew!, don't know what else to say.

Hartmann’s “tulip” nose design was a personal insignia. Like Galland’s cigar smoking Mickey Mouse. After his release from Soviet captivity, Hartmann served with the Bundesluftwaffe, as did other WWII aces.

The 11th Panzer’s ghost was an official unit insignia. But as stated above the BLW had a Richthofen Geschwader that used a unit insignia very similar to the unit badge of JG.2 Richthofen.  

Just interesting to me. There are other examples of official and unofficial insignia that are from the Third Reich or before that are incorporated into various Bundeswehr emblems, badges, etc.

JG-71 Hartmann

I find that strange also.  I don't pretend to know about how there army was organised  post war. But during the war years the army was not part of the Nazi organization but army personnel could join the Nazi party. Hitler never fully trusted the army felt it was full of anti ***. and especially  in there high comand

If other units kept there insignia that could be a cool way to display then and now builds.

Mopar Madness

Lol... this is an interesting thread though.   Nonetheless, that ghost insignia does look really cool on those Leopard’s! 

 

That it does. One of these days, I will build one.

Lol... this is an interesting thread though.   Nonetheless, that ghost insignia does look really cool on those Leopard’s! 

Zomb thread resurrection...

A few days ago I finally found the answer- the 3rd Company of the 64th Panzer Battalion, 2nd Panzer Grenadier Division Bundeswehr is the unit. The actual battalion insignia is a horseshoe with a wolf leaping across. But for some reason the 3rd company adapted the ghost Panzer insignia as their own. As for the rest, my German is too rusty to understand. 

Well the photos are from 1986. A different political climate than today, and the height of the Cold War in Central Europe. I seem to recall a LOT of tension in the world at that time. That insignia in these photos was indeed from 11th Panzer. IIRC, 10th Panzer used the outline of a Bison on some of their tanks in North Africa, but I seriously doubt that this was any sort of tribute of that sort. I suspect that if there is no continued lineage between Bundeswehr Heer units and Wehrmacht Heer units (quite probable in my mind), that some junior leader, who was a history buff on Panzers was able to get this insignia applied to their unit. Although I have been on a Bundeswehr kick lately looking for my next project and when looking thru decal options on some of the kits in my stash have found more than one unit insignia that has a WH WWII counterpart or part incorporated into the BH unit marking.

Tankluver

Wasnt colonel staufenburg in the 11th panzer in africa, it could be for him?

He was with the 10th in Africa, and didn't serve with the 11th at all. The only Pz Div's in Africa were the 10th, 15th and 21st.

Maybe they just thought it was a cool insignia, and as there is no obvious link with the 3rd Reich, no one said anything.

Wasnt colonel staufenburg in the 11th panzer in africa, it could be for him?

I thought that about Rommel myself Tankluver. But then i remembered that Rommel commanded the 7th Pz Div. It was called the Ghost Div because of the way he commanded it. This insignia was used by the 11th Pz Div.

You know, this could just be a platoon with these markings? But maybe because it was Rommels ghost division, that they thought itd be okay, because rommel opposed Hitler and was forced to take cyanide, so i guess it coul be a tribute?

I had to look that up myself. Apparently the issue was raised in 98 and a decision made in 2005.

You have a good point, surely there could have been no complaint about Galland.

Tankluver

what kind of leopards are those

Leopard 2s. A4 variant I think. ut before the A5/A6 with its' added armor on the turret front.

Bish, I had wondered about that happening as to why it is no longer used by that wing. I always thought that Galland was more deserving of  a wing name for his leadership in the Jagdwaffe, and his oppposition to the Nazi heirarchey at the end of the war.

I am surprised to see this on modern German armour, but there was modern German air force unit, JG 74, which in 1973 was given the honourary name 'Molders'. But in 2005 this was removed when the Parliment felt that Modlers had not done anything to oppose the goverment of the time.

Maybe it was felt that the 11th Pz were not associated directly with the goverment of Hitler. It could be this was an un official marking added by the troops.

what kind of leopards are those

Yeah, I posted this over where he is active now as well. I am just curious if anyone here would know. I thought it was pretty cool myself and am really thinking about adding these markings to my Leopard 2 build.

Very cool

Manny might know