Coldsteel6d, The incident that I know did happen was in WW11 and one man came out of an upstairs window and disabled a German tank. I cannot recall what tank it was!.

Incidentally He was one of my Instructors for a while.

Thanks for your reply...cheers....Kenny

Thanks for your reply to.

 

I believe there was at least one case of infantry getting onto an Abrams, during the Battle of 73 Easting during Desert Storm.  The tanks had over-run an Iraqi infantry unit, and had slowed as they crossed the trenches, giving the Iraqis a chance to jump on board.  His wingman hosed the tank down with their coax.

So dead-space to your own MGs is a moot point.  Your wingman has that covered.

Saw a show on History channel the other day, don't remember the name but they deal with great tank battles in history. Use some computer generated scenes to show how some of the battles went down. They were talking about Korea and there was a part were they talked of an incident where two tanks were driving down a road and they were swarmed by North Korean infantry. They did in fact climb up on top of the tanks and were doing their best to cause havoc. Think they were Pershings in this senario. Basically each tank just coaxed the other to clear em out. So it defiantly could happen since it has happened before.

Thanks to every one for showing an interest. It was a fairly open question.

You must remember my time was in the 1950's, Tanks were not as sophisticated as they are to-day and such things were considered viable...cheers....Kenny

As a former M1A1 and A2 crewman I can tell you we DID train to fight of infantry (or crunches as we called them) with both the co-axle MG and loaders MG. During gunnery training some infantry targets were always included for both. However, whether we really thought we would be applying this is a whole other matter.

I can say the thought of infantry mounting the tank was NEVER address so I think we figured they would never get that close.

However, infantry AT gunners were and are a real threat.

I remember one time we drove past a bush during a training exercise and a Dragon AT gunner hidden in the bush caused us to become a mobility kill. (i.e. the tank could still fight but not move)

Hope this helps.........

Scott

spacepacker

Thanks for all of your reply's.

jezones, yours was of particular interest; you say you had some training as late as the 90's.

However I think my head is now clear, not much chance of it being done on a modern MBT...cheers....Kenny  

Just about everyone in the Army and Marine Corps went through that exercise; sit in a concrete foxhole while an old M60A1 tank rolls over you and you pop out and fire a LAW (light anti-tank weapon) at the engine grills. The exercise is designed to remove the fear of a tank from the trainee. It would be akin to trying to stop a Mack truck with a single shot .22 caliber rifle. You might get lucky, but you probably just gain the tank's undivided attention.

If you want to watch a very good movie about a tank and its crew, search for a movie called "The Beast" 
 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094716/?ref_=sr_4 

While the movie is about a Soviet tank crew separated and lost in Afghanistan, it is a good character study (i.e. who are the good guys and the bad guys), but also has several realistic situations a lone tank crew might find themselves in.

It used to be in the Walmart clearance bins for $4.99, but eBay or Netflix is probably your best bet.

The ultimate anti-tank weapon-

Yeah, the supply sergeant would not be happy having to replace all of your gear on the outside. There isn't room to keep anything inside.

Seriously, combat is a team effort, and either your wingman tank or supporting infantry would, in an ideal situation, take care of such a problem. I'm sure just taking off at a high rate of speed would shed most enemy combatants off of your tank. Any that were left would be busy hanging on for dear life!

I remember while waiting to fire at the range I was discussing with a buddy of mine the feasibility of mounting claymore mines to the outside of the tank and firing them from the inside to ward off enemy infantry. My buddy was convinced that it would work. I told him that I didn't want to be in the tank with him when he tried. I remember reading a book about Vietnam War tankers in which they did such a thing on a dozer tank. But the claymores were mounted to the front of the dozer blade. They were triggered by the driver. I suspect the blast concussion would not be good for man or machine.

not only the infantry remains but all the shot up ration boxes, sleeping bags, soda cans and all the other crap we carry on the 70t rucksacks.

Thanks for all of your reply's.

jezones, yours was of particular interest; you say you had some training as late as the 90's.

However I think my head is now clear, not much chance of it being done on a modern MBT...cheers....Kenny  

In the late 90's as a support soldier we got little training on attacking tanks. In basic we were taught to attack from the rear or don't bother. Modern tanks like the M1A1 are huge. It was hard enough climbing up on them in the correct mount and dismount locations. Trying to mount a moving combat ready tank would not be a good idea. The Abrams and the Bradley can pivot so fast and turn the turret it would be like trying to stand on a bucking bronco. Not that I ever tried. When we were testing the ODS Bradley's we would pivot the hull clockwise and turn the turret counter clockwise. It looked pretty cool to watch cause the turret would look like it was just floating on top. It did not take long for the hull to pivot a full 360.

The infantryman of today is not a casual economy.  Each infantryman fielded by modern forces represents millions of dollars of training and equipment.  One of the things that makes them so valuable is that they can engage targets upwards of 300m away.  

The roll of the MG is to engage targets at the extreme edge of infantry engagements.  You use it to deny areas to personnel and equipments, this works best at ranges of 500 to 1000m (1200-1500m and more in the case of .50bmg).

Panzers have long evolved from walking-pace mobile pillboxes supporting infantry to specialized equipment for force projection using mass and fires.   Tank engagement ranges run from 1000 to 3-4000m.

All of this is why the the AT missile systems have such extreme ranges.  Anyone launching TOW for example, at under 500m will discover that they are well within the range of those flexible MGs on the tracks (it is very difficult to keep the pipper on target with rounds raining upon your position at 5-10 per second).  Going to be tougher to do that with dismounted infantry closer than that.  Doubly so since they will be able to call upon their AIFV. 

Even if we suppose a situation, like a "horns of the bull" encirclement, where the panzer might be operating at speed and without infantry support, a competent commander will be calling for artillery fires or upon the attached air support to suppress likely ambush sites.  (Not having those assets to hand and still engaging valuable military materiel suggesting questioning the commander's competence.)  In the case of a Merkava, your in-hands-reach infantry is going to have a bad day for having that grumpy scout squad aboard taking issue with you trying to break their ride.

In combined arms, the infantry is there to keep the bad guys a half kilometer away.  IFV will push them back another half kilometer..  Yes, MOUT complicates things; but, commanders still retain a responsibility to not hazard troops and materiel by sending them places that get them into hand's reach.

I'd traverse the turret and have the driver neutral steer. If the traversing turret didn't crush you, it'd knock you off and the 70 tons of turning track would grind you into the dirt. The M1/M1A1 has a powered traverse on the cupola and a Ma Duece I can fire from inside.

Imagine that big old machine gun being swung around like a giant baseball bat over and over. Heck, I haven't even pulled the trigger yet. Just firing the main gun while you're hanging on the tank side would be enough to give you a mild concussion.

Having infantry try to climb on the tank while it is in operation would be so much fun; until we had to clean up the mess we made of you back in the motor pool. It would make for good war stories at the expense of the unfortunate souls we left in the dirt.

Unless you have a shaped charge with you, you won't be able to get inside a combat-locked tank from the outside.

i have only read 1 report of a MERKAVA IV with a 12.7mm COAX. almost all are 7.62mm and used against troops and trucks/light skinned vehicles. the 12.7mm on an M1 and M1126 are remote operated, at least until you have to reload, so can be fired buttoned up. especially after '73 all the NATO armies trained extensively as combined arms units with infantry keeping enemy infantry off the tanks and tanks taking on enemy tanks. we were taught the weak spots for aiiming light AT weapons but no one was taught to swarm a tank. modern tanks have periscpoes in the "vision block holes" so no openings to shoot into. hatches lock from the inside. most likely scenario is the CENTURION unit in korea that machined gunned each other to sweep off the enemy soldiers climbing on board. i suppose in a combat in cities scenario you could get close enough for molotov cocktails or sticky bombs to disable a tank but i wouldn't want to try it.

I have to thank you for your reply, as to "Baloney" , please re-read my post.

I stated, I was 'trained' trained by WW11 veterans.

One of them was awarded the Military Cross for such an achievement, there is No "Baloney".

There have been many instances of Infantry disabling a tank with out the use of 'Bazooka's/ Piat's.

Of course I should have mentioned my training was 60+yrs ago...cheers....Kenny

"If possible, we were trained to get on board and then we might give the Tank a nasty Headache with Grenades,"  Baloney.  This is the stuff of comic books and bad movies.

"firing thro' vision ports"  Baloney again -- one of the most unrealistic scenes in "Saving Private Ryan"

It seems you're asking how infantry attack a modern tank today.  Well they don't -- certainly not like the old comic books  or the close in attack tactics of WW2 German, Russian and suicide Japanese infantrymen.

The coaxial MG of a modern tank (like the Merkava) is used against other vehicles, ranging the cannon, and distant soft targets.  It's not used to ward off swarming AT infantry.  Its limited depression does not affect defense against infantry.

The 7.62mm crew served MG is used by exposed tankers as needed.  It would have some effacy against exposed enemy infantry.

The fact is, there is no current hand-held AT device capable of disabling modern MBTs and infantry would be needlessly sacrficing themselves.

And yes Tanks other AFVs and Infantry cooperate.

 

Here's how a Merkava commander would ward off swarming infantry.  "Hey boss, we're buttoned up.  Fire some HE onto us to clear off these fleas"  Then he's pull back to the rest of his units while running over as many "crunchies" as possible.