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Jumbo Sherman's main gun

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  • Member since
    November 2011
  • From: Schloss Adler
Jumbo Sherman's main gun
Posted by MountnRide on Sunday, October 20, 2013 11:56 AM

Which gun barrel did most tanks receive? With the smooth gun or one with threaded end and washer? Thanks

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: UK
Posted by Jon_a_its on Sunday, October 20, 2013 12:25 PM

The initial run of 'Jumbo' Shermans (the heavily armoured ones, not the Italeri boxing with the wrong name)

were all fitted with a 75mm main gun, as found on many Shermans, as it had a good HE shell, for it's intended bunker-busting & column leading role.

SOME were retro-fitted with the 76MM gun & mantlet to give it a much better Anti-Tank capability, but the trade-off was that the 76mm had limited HE shell availability.

I don't recall seeing any with a muzzle break fitted, and/or the threaded end-cap but someone will know better.

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  • Member since
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  • From: Schloss Adler
Posted by MountnRide on Sunday, October 20, 2013 2:08 PM

There are photos of both. Just didn't know the ratio. Which was more common if so.

  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, October 20, 2013 4:33 PM

The Jumbos as built came with the 75mm gun. Some were rebuilt/rearmed in early 1945 with the 76mm gun. I have yet to come across a photos of the 76mm Jumbos with a muzzle brake. It was not so much a ratio, but rather whether or not the Jumbo survived to 1945 and went in for the upgun rearm.

 

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  • From: Schloss Adler
Posted by MountnRide on Sunday, October 20, 2013 5:30 PM

Not a muzzle brake

  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, October 20, 2013 5:41 PM

I have yet to come across a photo of a Jumbo with a muzzle brake. They were re armed at depots in Europe, and likely the stocks of 76mm guns were earlier build ones kept as spares for replacing worn out guns.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

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  • Member since
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  • From: Schloss Adler
Posted by MountnRide on Sunday, October 20, 2013 6:04 PM

Again...NO muzzle brake. Threaded barrel with end cap(washer).

  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, October 20, 2013 6:12 PM

Are you asking or saying "no muzzle brake"?  I am at work and do not have access to my library at the moment. So can not say definitively if those upgunned to 76mm and photographed had either the end cap or the non threaded barrel.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

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  • Member since
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  • From: Schloss Adler
Posted by MountnRide on Sunday, October 20, 2013 6:46 PM

I know they didn't have the muzzle brake but many did have the end cap. Just wondering roughly how many

  • Member since
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  • From: San Francisco Bay Area
Posted by bufflehead on Sunday, October 20, 2013 6:56 PM

I think MountnRide is referring to the M1 A2 76MM gun with the thread protector.  There are some photos here http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/m4a3e4/m4a3e4.html

Here's a photo for discussion only:

That's all I can offer.  I don't have enough references to determine if any Jumbo's had the thread protector.

Ernest

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  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, October 20, 2013 7:14 PM

I did a quick google search. Most the images in my books that have the Jumbo were found there. Looking at the ones I found on the image earch shows both types of 76mm guns being used, but the smooth end and not the capped end were more prevelant in photos.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

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  • Member since
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  • From: San Francisco Bay Area
Posted by bufflehead on Sunday, October 20, 2013 7:29 PM

You da man Stik!

Ernest

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  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, October 20, 2013 8:46 PM

Have tablet. Will travel. ;-)

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

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  • Member since
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  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Monday, October 21, 2013 7:55 AM

I glanced though some of my Sherman books and only found a few photos- but all were the plain barrel without the end cap.

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  • From: On my kitchen counter top somewhere in central North Carolina.
Posted by disastermaster on Monday, October 21, 2013 12:11 PM

 Apparently a late war addition. 

The M-1A1 76mm main-gun w/muzzle brake was installed on Cobra King in March 1945 (a year after the tank broke through Bastogne) at the direction of Lt. Gen. George S. Patton Jr.http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/-images/2009/06/16/41244/size0-army.mil-41244-2009-06-16-060648.jpg

To my knowledge it is currently at the U.S. Army Museum in Washington, D.C. after being restored to its original configuration.

 https://i.imgur.com/LjRRaV1.png

 

 

 
  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, October 21, 2013 2:06 PM

disastermaster

 Apparently a late war addition. 

The M-1A1 76mm main-gun w/muzzle brake was installed on Cobra King in March 1945 (a year after the tank broke through Bastogne) at the direction of Lt. Gen. George S. Patton Jr.http://usarmy.vo.llnwd.net/e2/-images/2009/06/16/41244/size0-army.mil-41244-2009-06-16-060648.jpg

To my knowledge it is currently at the U.S. Army Museum in Washington, D.C. after being restored to its original configuration.

Here is Cobra King in "original" configuration, shortly after entering Bastogne. With the original 75mm at that point

Here is an upgunned Jumbo from 4th Armored division with the smooth barrel tip

and here is one from 3rd Armored Division with the threaded/capped muzzle

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

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  • Member since
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Posted by T26E4 on Monday, October 21, 2013 2:17 PM

Disastermaster: Your pic is of Cobra King before it got its full restoration.  It was brought back to Ft Knox where it got its paint stripped and all its parts re-done.  You can read about it here:

http://www.armorfortheages.com/NACM/NACMmain/Projects/CobraKingProject/CobraKingProjectPage.htm

www.armorfortheages.com/.../CKProjectPage50.htm

Currently, it resides at Ft Benning with T48 track, the correct markings for Cobra King and a 75mm gun.  The pic you posted was before a historical restore so the muzzle is suspect (likely added by the restorers who prepared it as the gate guardian in Germany)

 

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  • Member since
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  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Monday, October 21, 2013 2:20 PM

Where is ol' Shermanfreak when you need him?

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, October 21, 2013 2:40 PM

T26 that is great to see such a historical tank being in such condition and placed at Benning. I hope they can find another run of proper tracks for the right side to finish the job.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

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  • Member since
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Posted by T26E4 on Monday, October 21, 2013 7:25 PM

They have plenty of spares at Benning.  Here's my hand on a piece of history:

i45.photobucket.com/.../100_3325_zps860b7a2c.jpg

Outside, the motor pool guys had some Marines who were awaiting a training course to begin, working on installing some track on an M4 (105).  Nothing like hands on training!

i45.photobucket.com/.../100_3302_zps4d11b231.jpg

i45.photobucket.com/.../100_3303_zpscb366487.jpg

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  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, October 21, 2013 8:00 PM

I wonder if they knew the history that they were helping to preserve...

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

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  • Member since
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Posted by T26E4 on Monday, October 21, 2013 8:10 PM

I would think so.  They were all there for a tank mechanics course.  The motor pool has hundreds of artifact vehicles and arty pieces.  The guys who run the motor pool are ex-tank mechanics and I'm sure they were giving the context of the vehicles to the Marines.  The photos actually show them battling w/the idler adjustment I believe.  The head honcho of the motor pool, Len Dyer, is the one with the bluejeans.  His assignment for the guys is to loosen the idler w/o any power tools.  They needed to get some huge torque using only simple tools -- an exercise in problem solving.

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  • From: On my kitchen counter top somewhere in central North Carolina.
Posted by disastermaster on Monday, October 21, 2013 10:37 PM

http://media.desura.com/images/groups/1/3/2074/1279832600245.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-urkcWZ-TTxI/T_7p9AvJqhI/AAAAAAAACao/J85amz-vvgY/s1600/th_PoutingSmiley.gif Okay, who stole my chickenwire....

T26E4

Disastermaster: Your pic is of Cobra King before it got its full restoration.  It was brought back to Ft Knox where it got its paint stripped and all its parts re-done.  You can read about it here:

http://www.armorfortheages.com/NACM/NACMmain/Projects/CobraKingProject/CobraKingProjectPage.htm

www.armorfortheages.com/.../CKProjectPage50.htm

Currently, it resides at Ft Benning with T48 track, the correct markings for Cobra King and a 75mm gun.  The pic you posted was before a historical restore so the muzzle is suspect (likely added by the restorers who prepared it as the gate guardian in Germany)

Hey, some great info there, thanks.......

......but if Patton said so - wouldn't that make it so? (the moment in time scenario)

 https://i.imgur.com/LjRRaV1.png

 

 

 
  • Member since
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Posted by T26E4 on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:05 AM

If you read the restoration blog, you'll see that Cobra King's original 75mm was later swapped out for a 76mm upgrade.  But the restoration's goal was to depict Cobra King during the Battle of Bulge timeframe so they purposely restored it to an earlier configuration.

Roy Chow 

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  • Member since
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  • From: On my kitchen counter top somewhere in central North Carolina.
Posted by disastermaster on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:20 PM

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/yes/signboard-ok-smiley-emoticon.gif  I read it.

 I was only trying to illustrate that the configuration did exist at one time and wasn't really concentrating on that particular vehicle.

 Below is Commander Creighton W. Abrams Tank (not a jumbo) of the 37th regiment 4th Armored Division January 1945 Bastogne and a testament to the use of the muzzle brake.http://www.warmachineart.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/a/bailey-m4a3-sherman-76mm.jpg

 Next, a HVSS version..http://tonallandscape.com/places/images_mvtf/mvtf_19.jpg

 In 1944 the higher-velocity 76mm M1A1 gun was introduced that gave the Sherman armor-piercing firepower comparable to the Soviet 85mm ZiS-S53 gun.

 The HVSS suspension modifications were made to address the greater weight of the larger turret and 76mm gun, and to generally improve the ride of the tank. The hull was welded and the armor slightly thickened (in contrast to the cast hull of the M4A1 above) bringing the total weight to 33 tonnes.

Next is this seriously handsome beast which isn't in the assault tank configuration (jumbo) either, but another example of the Muzzle brake.

http://ww2total.com/WW2/Weapons/Vehicles/Tanks/US/Sherman-tank/images-76mm/M4A1-76mm-Panzermuseum-Munster-px800.jpg

 I'm far from being a know-it-all here and I know these are museum pieces. I put this info up as an aide to the newer and possibly less informed members on the forum. 

http://nhtourguide.com/images/forum_images/emoticons/cya_smiley.gif Guys.....

 https://i.imgur.com/LjRRaV1.png

 

 

 
  • Member since
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  • From: Schloss Adler
Posted by MountnRide on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:00 PM

Isn't it funny how a thread starts and then bounces all over?

  • Member since
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  • From: On my kitchen counter top somewhere in central North Carolina.
Posted by disastermaster on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:13 PM

 

                 http://www.smiley-faces.org/smiley-faces/smiley-face-bouncing-002.gif

 https://i.imgur.com/LjRRaV1.png

 

 

 
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