n/t

Hi Guys,

 From the German side, it's easy: get Tom Jentz's book, "Panzertruppen" volume 2 (you really should have both).  It gives an order of battle of every German armored unit at Citadel, broken down by division (Tiger and STUG units, too).  That should get you started.  Good luck!

Regards,

Georg

PS- It was only the Germans and Russians at that point on the front.  The other allied armies weren't formed yet (Russian) or were being withdrawn (German).

agreed.

thanks for the help Roy, I'll look for those books, good stuff!

thanks for the link, every bit helps.

btw, i see you have traveled some...what commandry are you from?

I believe the Romanians, Hungarians, and Italians were also there on the Axis side, God only knows what they deployed, I'm assuming whatever they could scrape up.

Some numbers here to chew on:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=215452

Mention is made of the authors that the figures were sourced from, but I'm not familiar with either, so can't say how valid or up to date they are.

regards,

Jack

I'm sure the Germans were fairly meticulous with their vehicle records, but I doubt the Russians kept as close a count on them.  In an atmosphere of such gravity, it's likely that a lot of accountability was lost.

Speaking from personal experience, even in routine downrange staff meetings, our maintenance officer and subordinate commanders occasionally lost track of the numbers of their weapons systems and vehicles.  Vehicles frequently change hands between units prior to operations, and in the shuffle, accountability can easily get lost, double-counted, etc.

If you can pull this off, it'll be an important piece of historical documentation, but I foresee some serious digging both on-site and remotely.

"looking for make , model, unit & quantity if possible.

want to be accurate.

doing this for a friend."

What you're asking is some serious scholarship Panzerjager -- that's why you've rec'd some dismissive replies.  

Like someone else said, you're looking for unit dispositions on the eve of Citadel.  May I suggest the french language book "La Bataille de Koursk" by Francois de Lannoy, published by Editions Heimdal.  He has org charts and broad categories of AFV types (# of tanks, # of Stug) for Heer.  Nothing on Red Army dispositions.  

There are the two volumes "German Orders of Battle" by George Nafziger.

Try to get them through inter library loan.

Get some books related to the subject and scour their references. And then scour them.  You're nice to do this for your friend -- but if he/she is serious about being a history author....   well there's sweat involved.

As Stik says, it would be daunting to come up with a 100% accurate list. Pick a vehicle that was in service in md 1943, and it would probably have been there. The only way to get an close to accurate list is to go through the OOB's of every unit that fought in the battle and check every one. I just don't see why anyone would have complied a list of the type you are asking for just for this battle. The history's have no need to go into that sort of detail.

You're gonna probably find some one off's in there, such as the sole Tiger Porsche as well as the more famous types such as the Mk.IV G/H, etc. But seriously, on the Soviet side you have the standard Soviet types: T-34/76, KV-1s, etc, plus new vehicles, such as the SU-152, as well as various US & Brit Lend Lease types. The Germans used everything they had from oldest to newest plus captured, so it would really be daunting to come up with an all inclusive 100% accurate list.

I guess you didn't read the whole thread,  I am looking for a listing of specific tanks as in {PzKpfw IV Ausf. H} not just panzer 4 tanks.....

I have spent two days looking to compile a complete list like this, and was hoping that someone might say something like "ya, so in so has that on their web site"...

I am doing some serious research for a book, and was hoping for help and not sarcasm.

PANZERJAGER

...I am hoping there is a website or book...

Almost certainly.  Google it and see what you come up with

thanks YariCav,, probably just German and Russian, not the "lesser known" ie. Fin. Yugo.....

I am hoping there is a website or book..

Considering Operation Citadel was the largest tank battle in history, this is a pretty ambitious question.  I'm sure someone's put something together on this.  As far as which tanks were used, are you looking for all combatants?

I know you'd have better luck if you were focused on individual units rather than the entire scope of the operation.