uhmmm.....current armor question

Never mind. I saw clearer pictures of those areas and that's exatly what they are.

I saw a report from the field by ted koppel .He said that those were recognition panels for infrared.So they wont get shot by cobras and apaches. I myself am looking for more information on them.I must add that they may not work becouse a marine M-1 has been hit by an apache using a hellfire.Or so they are reporting.I hope this helps........

oooohhhh....schmuck **slaps head with hand** - that never occured to me. I'll bet your right, james.

It is my understanding that those panels called CIP (combat identification panels) are in widespread use in the US Army, but they are not universal in the USMC as yet.

Hi wibhi2, unfortunatly they ain't centurions, they are Challenger 2's and some Chieftain AVRE's. And yes they are id panels

thanks gulfstream - that's what I meant (got stuck in ww2 - senior citizen's moment)

The first time I saw the pictures of the 7th Cav vehicles was the first time I've seen the panels. After the first Gulf War, finding better ways to identify friendly vehicles was an important issue. For those of us in the field, we thought if they could come up with something it would be great -- but our concern was how do you make it in such a way that your enemy can't use it as either a method to target your vehicle and/or put something similiar on their own vehicles to fool you. The addition of technology is great, but it shouldn't be a replacement for the time spent studying the vehicle identification manuals. I guess having been a Scout (Armored Reconaissance) being proficient in vehicle identification was important.

Anyways...here are some links for more information.

Thermal Combat Identification Panels (CIPs)
The CIPs mount, in operational and non-operational modes, on all types of military vehicles. It facilitates gunner engagement process, provides all aspect coverage depending on terrain and Operates via low emissivity thermal tape.

Thermal Combat Identification Panels (CIPs) -- pictures of CIP's on a Bradley

Friend or Foe? CIPs Can Tell -- PDF of part of the PS Magazine Online

User's Guide 95-3 Combat Identification Quick Fix Devices

Quick Fix Combat Identification Panels (CIP) for Bradley

Combat Identification Panels -- provides some background about the program

way cool....thanks for the links.

it dosnt work a Challenger 2 has just blown up another Challenger 2

BUMMER...........Those brits are having a hell of a time over there. I hope things will turn around for them soon.

I didn't hear anything about friendly fire involving British Challengers. Was it on the news or on one of the news sites? It is sad when it happens, but it is a dangerous job and no matter what the technology can do and the training it's bound to happen. Hopefully with the lessons from the previous Gulf War, there will be less incidents.

1) Are the Challengers using the same or similiar thing as the American troops?

2) If they are using CIPs and if the CIPs just installed on the back of the turret, I'm guessing it might not be all that effective from the front.

3) According to the maintenance recommendations, it could be possible the sand and dirt are making them less effective.

During Operation ... Wipe the panels with a soft, clean cloth. The panels will need cleaning more often in dusty environments to ensure a strong thermal signature.

Having been out at NTC for almost four years and driven tanks and other vehicles in the desert out there, I wouldn't be surprised if the sand/dust/dirt builds up overtime degrading the effectiveness of the thermal tape. Also with the recent sandstorm, I wonder if it's possible for the thermal tape to become damaged. I remember being out in the desert when the winds kicked up really bad and that's some nasty stuff -- literally sand blasted at times.

I think the effectiveness of these panels will have to be measured by the number of incidents involving vehicles equipped properly with the CIPs.

I just saw a british warrior i.f.v with the panels on three sides .one on the rear and one on each side.p.s. bayonet recon you were in opfor?I bet you got some storys. CNN Breaking news,two m-1's were taken out by hostiles,gotta go..............

Yes, I was in the OPFOR. Many stories, many pictures and many memories.

Here was a post I made a couple months ago about the NTC/OPFOR.
http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=55

Now I have to go check on that news about the two M1s. [:0]

I heard the Iraquis got two of our Abrams by mounting tows on a pickup. Sounds like a new kit to me. The Pink Nissan pickup with a machine gun or TOW option.

CNN has a video clip with the news of the Abrams.
CNN's Walter Rodgers, embedded with the U.S. 3-7th Cavalry, reports no casualties after Iraqi forces took out two M1A1 Abrams tanks (March 26)

Thankfully, he said there were no casualties -- the crew was pulled out very quickly. I wonder what the extent of the damage was to the two M1A1s. He reported they are both out of commission, but I wonder if they are just disabled or a complete loss. The reporters comment was that he thinks that Army officials were "a bit taken back" by the news. That's definitely not good news.

Main battle tanks being picked off by pickup trucks w/TOW missiles (or the equivalent) -- although it's not really a good picture it's not really any different than Humvees mounting TOW missiles. It is war and the Iraqis are utilizing the resources at hand.

Hi guys, with regard to the challenger 2 taking out a challenger, makes a change as a brit I would have expected the challenger to be taken out by an abrams ! after all if memory serves...in the last gulf war something like 25% of british losses were down to US friendly fire !
If anyone fancy's a good patriotic argument mail me direct : PETER@smithp8.freeserve.co.uk
To end, it must be nice for the US to have the Best , no, Greatest armed forces doing all the hard work in Iraq.

Pink pick up trucks with heavy hardware mounted to them,Sounds like what was used in Somalia awhile back..Maybe the Iraqis thought it was a good ideas.Think about it ,light,fast,able to hide in town .Just dont get hit in one............gulfstream5 I beleave that the British military is among the very best in the world.I am sorry about the loss's in desert storm and I do not feel it is fair to compare that conflict to this one.Things are very different now......

QUOTE: Originally posted by gulfstream5 To end, it must be nice for the US to have the Best , no, Greatest armed forces doing all the hard work in Iraq.

Hmm...I don't want to take the bait on this one and start an argument. But I will say that both the US and British forces are doing there share and both sides are taking casualties. Watching this war from the comfort of our armchairs every night doesn't give us the right to judge who's doing more than who. Anyone who is over there doing their job has my utmost respect. I salute them all.

I agree.

I was in 3rd Amphibious Assault Battalion based out of Camp Pendleton in California. I have seen my old company (Echo Company) out there and have lost a couple of friends already. I feel for all the military out there but I can't help but wish I was out there right now fighting beside them. I was 3 weeks from going but my term was served and I came home. Me personally I hope one of the armor giants like Tamiya or Dragon make a line of vehicles to honor soldiers and marines and other foces after this is over

For the most part, the kits are already out there in model land, it appears to be really a matter of finding the proper Unit ID's and getting the appropriate dry transfers (yes,
I've been perusing my catalogs as of late).

In another thread, someone suggested using the bast shutters from a MLRS vehicle.
not a bad idea - according to the links above, the cip panel is approx 20 x 30 so they would have to be cut down a bit or built out of evergreen strips and plasti-struct angles.

Firstly ..remembering that we are on the same side, I wish all the US and British forces well in Iraq and hope that they all return safely once the job is done. Blue on Blue does appear to be more common and tends to involve US forces more than the Brits, could this be down to training methods or perhaps a more measured approach in the combat zone? Ref the comment on "the best" without doubt the Brits............with US equipment! Oh.. and The Royal Scots Dragoons supported by the Black Watch head and shoulders above all else. Can any one help with a web source of profiles featuring the Warrior MCV for a Gulf war 2 diorama. Happy modeling!

Do you guys know of a good current events board? Can you tell me where it is? I I can't find one I like.
as for the CIP structure - it looks like an aluninum ventillator in the end of a barn.
I don't think it would be too hard to make from strip.

inmate86 - I've found tons of visual references in the photo section of CNN, and I am sure that there are tons of other news agencies out there in electro land that have the same - maybe even ITN.

I'm more of an aircraft modeller but I used to work for the British army . Challengers and Warriors are wearing "up armour" kits consisting of slabs of Chobham armour hanging on the sides, mostly as defence against close range infantry anti-tank weapons. The engines exhaust through grilles on the side of the vehicle and provision has to be made in the up armour to leave these unobstructed. That may account for some of the vents you are seeing. Friendly fire is a bitch, but it's easy to judge when you're not scared shitless.
Remember the Eagle squadrons of 1940, we will, always.

Semper Fi Amtracdaddy.

Making the CIP panels is a piece of cake. I just made four of em for my Abrams, two on the back of the turret, one on each side. Its interesting seeing the difference in the size of the panels on different types of vehicles. The Abrams ones are about 20x30, but the ones on M113s are twice that size.

It's not that easy. You can memorize all of the Armor recognition photos that you like, but turn your TIS on, & its a whole new ballgame. A good part of the armor recognition test for the Tank Crew Gunnery Skills Test is done with Thermal images of both Friend & Threat vehicles. With only seconds to decide whether to shoot or not you had better be able to identify a "white hot" or "black hot" image in your GPS.

Anyone got any sources for 1/35 current issue equipment like rucks, etc? I need tons of stuff to hang on my Abrams models. I found a set of modern water bottles (Evian, Dasani, etc.) from Accurate Armor, but no other equipment. Gotta get some MRE boxes too. I haven't seen the Tamiya paper ones in a while.