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Help with black knight king tiger

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  • Member since
    March, 2017
  • From: West Virginia U.S.A
Help with black knight king tiger
Posted by Matt B on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 8:08 PM

I'm nearing the completion of my 1/35 cyberhobby black knight king tiger. It is the late war henschel turret kt without zimmerit. From what I've looked into, it is a relatively accurate late war tiger II that just has markings from the comic. It was actually an exceptional kit. I would rather paint and decal it in a non fictional setting and I was curious if anyone could throw me some ideas. I'm not sure who used this particular model and what exact camo scheme was applied. I've begun researching this myself but any helpful tips would be very much appreciated.

Tags: Black knight
  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:26 PM

I think it was Heer 505 Heavy Tank Battalion that had a mounted charging knight painted on the side of their King Tiger turrets. Otherwise most Heavy Tank Battalions either had small unit insignia on the hull front and rear, or none at all. Only the tactical numbers and national insignia were worn.

 

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  • Member since
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Posted by Ixion on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:31 PM

The "Black Knight" series is actually a Japanese comic book invention, not the "charging knight emblem" of sPzAbt 505. The kit is basically the same as Dragons 6254 Battle of the Bulge kit, depicting a vehicle of sSSPzAbt 501.

  • Member since
    March, 2017
  • From: West Virginia U.S.A
Posted by Matt B on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:33 PM

Ok. I have plenty of numbers and balkan crosses to make just about any unit. I have a few waffen ss divional insignias as well. I know theres one without zimmerit in the munster panzer museum, but I'm having trouble finding photos of it in the field. It belonged to kampfgruppe peiper. I can't get a good look at the camo either. Do you know if they were still in the dk yellow, redbrown, & green ambush pattern? I've heard they started using the primer red as one of the colors towards the end of the war.

  • Member since
    December, 2012
Posted by Ixion on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:39 PM

I should be able to find a photo of the Munster Tiger II as it appeared originally, but I don't think the paint sceme is discernible from the photo I'm thinking of at the moment. This might take some time...I know I have at least one, it's just figuring out which book it's in. Confused I'll start by thumbing through the 554 pages of BoB Then and Now. Wink

  • Member since
    March, 2017
  • From: West Virginia U.S.A
Posted by Matt B on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:44 PM

The pic that Ixion posted was what I had in mind. If they're basically the same kit, then I might consider just making it in the patterns suggested for the 6254 version. 

  • Member since
    March, 2017
  • From: West Virginia U.S.A
Posted by Matt B on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:47 PM

Ixion

I should be able to find a photo of the Munster Tiger II as it appeared originally, but I don't think the paint sceme is discernible from the photo I'm thinking of at the moment. This might take some time...I know I have at least one, it's just figuring out which book it's in. Confused

 

Thank you. That was the same problem I was having with it in the pictures online. 

  • Member since
    December, 2012
Posted by Ixion on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 9:59 PM

I believe the Munster Tiger II is actually;

"ex-#121 of sSS Pz Abt 101 {501} and was captured by US Troops somewhere near Cambrai Sept/Oct 44, first of all it was shipped to Aberdeen PG in the US, but later given back to Munster where some strange "flat" mudguards and the missing muzzlebrake with about 50cm of barrel were added (Panther parts I believe)."

You should be good with the "Ambush Scheme" as depicted on Dragon's boxart that I posted, although better, complete 4-way views can be found.

Here's the kicker however; Jentz identifies the brown as being red oxide primer in all three color plates of sSSPzAbt 501 Ardennes vehicles in Osprey's King Tiger Heavy Tank. One of which does not have any spots, the other two do.

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 10:17 PM

Ixion

The "Black Knight" series is actually a Japanese comic book invention, not the "charging knight emblem" of sPzAbt 505. 

 

Yes, I am aware of the comic book origins of Black Knight kits. But the original post said that he was looking for any non fiction markings. Probably the most distinctive of any of the Tiger unit markings was schwere panzer abteilung 505. That's why I suggested them, not because of the knight kings being confused with the comic book source. But because they were one of the few units that displayed prominent unit markings. 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December, 2012
Posted by Ixion on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 10:23 PM

Oh, sorry. Embarrassed I'm just not sure everyone knows the Black Knight markings  were fictional. The 505 vehicles are July and August 1944 built vehicles with Zimmerit, I don't know....without looking it up... if they recieved later, non Zimmerited ones.

Looking up sPzAbt 505 deliveries in Tigers in Combat I, the last vehicles delivered were 3 Sept. 1944 builds, so they would still, (most likely since I don't have the exact build date) have Zimmerit.

  • Member since
    July, 2004
  • From: Sunny So. Cal... The OC
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 10:36 PM

No worries. An educated guess says that 505th would have likely received some non zimmed Tiger IIs as attrition replacements. But then would those have had the same elaborate markings? The Tiger im Focus site likely has that answer... 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December, 2012
Posted by Ixion on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 10:54 PM

Unfortunately, I can't tell much from the thumbnail images posted on Tiger im Focus.

The delivery chart for the 505th on page 262 of Tigers in Combat is accurate down to the date of delivery and doesn't show any more new builds or vehicle transfers after Sept 44, other than 4 Tiger I's from sPzAbt 511 on Jan 28th, 1945. From the photos I have, they all appear to have Zimmerit and would have features present on earlier production vehicles.

  • Member since
    March, 2017
  • From: West Virginia U.S.A
Posted by Matt B on Thursday, March 16, 2017 11:58 AM

Ixion

Unfortunately, I can't tell much from the thumbnail images posted on Tiger im Focus.

The delivery chart for the 505th on page 262 of Tigers in Combat is accurate down to the date of delivery and doesn't show any more new builds or vehicle transfers after Sept 44, other than 4 Tiger I's from sPzAbt 511 on Jan 28th, 1945. From the photos I have, they all appear to have Zimmerit and would have features present on earlier production vehicles.

 

ok. I'll keep researching online until I can find a suitable nonzimm tiger ii. I'm sure there's gotta be something out there. I think the use of zimmerit was discontinued after Sept of 44 if I'm not mistaken. I can probably use some artistic license when it comes to the redbrown/ red oxide camo issue. A battle of Berlin tiger II may be the answer. Thank you for taking the time to look into this for me.

  • Member since
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  • From: From the Mit, but live in Mason, O high ho
Posted by hogfanfs on Thursday, March 16, 2017 12:35 PM

Bruce

 

 

  • Member since
    December, 2012
Posted by Ixion on Thursday, March 16, 2017 1:05 PM

There are a number of paint scheme options available for this version of Tiger II. Tell me how you would like it to appear or where it operated and I'm sure we can find a scheme and markings that are appropriate for this version. sSSPzAbt 503 would be the primary Tiger unit operating in Berlin. Photos of this period are scarce, but there are some. Would need to check on features present and make sure your model would be appropriate. I can probably scare up some art work as well. 

 Oscha Turk Tiger II near the Colombus Haus.

As the Terminator would say; "I have extensive files." Cool

  • Member since
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  • From: West Virginia U.S.A
Posted by Matt B on Thursday, March 16, 2017 1:21 PM
  • Member since
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  • From: West Virginia U.S.A
Posted by Matt B on Thursday, March 16, 2017 1:34 PM

Ixion

There are a number of paint scheme options available for this version of Tiger II. Tell me how you would like it to appear or where it operated and I'm sure we can find a scheme and markings that are appropriate for this version. sSSPzAbt 503 would be the primary Tiger unit operating in Berlin. Photos of this period are scarce, but there are some. Would need to check on features present and make sure your model would be appropriate. I can probably scare up some art work as well. 

 Oscha Turk Tiger II near the Colombus Haus.

As the Terminator would say; "I have extensive files." Cool

 

Awesome. Im gonna try to post a couple pics of my model in its current state so we know what we're working  with. I'm on my mobile right now. I'm kinda partial to a hard edged camo if it's an option. I've never been too crazy about the ambush camo, but there's always room for a 1st.

  • Member since
    December, 2012
Posted by Ixion on Thursday, March 16, 2017 1:57 PM

David Pentland has produced some fine paintings of sSSPzAbt 503 Tigers in Berlin, they are easy to find online. There were also 4 Tiger II's of Panzerabteilung Münchenberg operating near and in Berlin, although I don't know if any photos of these cats exist.

  • Member since
    March, 2017
  • From: West Virginia U.S.A
Posted by Matt B on Thursday, March 16, 2017 11:01 PM

Ixion

David Pentland has produced some fine paintings of sSSPzAbt 503 Tigers in Berlin, they are easy to find online. There were also 4 Tiger II's of Panzerabteilung Münchenberg operating near and in Berlin, although I don't know if any photos of these cats exist.

 

I looked up some of his paintings today and I ran across a couple others by another artist. I'm gonna go with the king tiger numbered 314 from the 503. It's a hard edged 3 tone camo. I found a couple decent color renderings of it. Im trying to figure out how to get the pictures from my phone posted.

  • Member since
    December, 2012
Posted by Ixion on Friday, March 17, 2017 10:07 AM

I obviously missed this on TIIF, Dunce

http://www.tiif.de/thread.php?postid=839

Unterscharführer Diers' 314, sSSPzAbt 503;

Translated from above site;

"That could be the Tiger # 314 of Ucha G. Diers. I have times in the Berlin address book from 1943 after "Anton Schnur & Co." (The company name at the building in the background). The address is: Schönhauser Allee 117 (corner of Kopenhagener Straße) at the Schönhauser S-Bahn-Hof, so exactly where Diers gives up his Tiger II after running on mines. This should have happened on 3 May morning. Only the streetcar tracks in the foreground irritate, as according to city map (1932) there the S-Bahn as Hochbahn. The tracks should look different."

Hard to tell a lot from this one photo. It doesn't look much like Pentland's painting of 314, even though the painting was signed by Diers;

On pages 315-317 of Armor Battles of the Waffen SS, Diers wrote about his actions in Berlin, which supports the statement quoted above and that this photo is indeed his vehicle. Right before they drove over German mines and were disabled, they had picked up 3 hitchhikers, one of which was Martin Bormann! Only one of the hitchhiking officers survived to tell Diers, who was unaware of them until he had paused to open his hatch during the battle on Ziegel street, the others had been shot off the tank by direct fire from Russian artillery and infantry, along with most of the onboard tools and equipment. I have attempted to find other photos of 314, but so far the only other I've found is a rearward shot posted in the above link.

  • Member since
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  • From: West Virginia U.S.A
Posted by Matt B on Friday, March 17, 2017 11:40 AM

That exact same question was discussed by another guy on amorama some time ago. They even mentioned the point that Pentlands painting was signed by Diers, even though the photo doesn't seem to resemble the painting. I can see where Diers would probably not be too concerned about such a detail when signing something that honored one of his final combat actions. The telltale spots on a ambush camo scheme are usually pretty obvious even in black & white photos. The other renderings of his vehicle are showing it in a plain 3 tone scheme with the 314 being just a simple black outline. I would have to remove my tools, tow cables & fenders to create this vehicle. I hate to do that. I spent alot of time on all the pe clasps and I really like the metal cables.

  • Member since
    December, 2012
Posted by Ixion on Friday, March 17, 2017 12:22 PM

I agree that I don't see even a trace of spots on the photo, they should be visible even in this low resolution shot. This makes me disappointed with Pentland, since my "bunker" sports a copy of his "Counterattack at Viller's Bocage" Sad

I too would hate to butcher tools off a finished model, perhaps back date it to just prior to this action, no sense in scrapping all that hard-fought PE! This appears to me to be the standard, (and at this time frame, factory applied), 3-tone scheme, although with red-primer substituting for red-brown, as according to Jentz, page 138, Germany's Tiger Tanks, VK45.02 toTiger II.

Just to add to the confusion, page 7 of Tigers in Combat II states that Tiger IIs of sSSPzAbt 503 were finished in Ambush Scheme...with no mention of any other variation...Confused  Perhaps Mr Pentland isn't wrong after all?

Then there is this if you want to wade around;

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/search?searchterm=ambush+tiger+314+sSSpzAbt+503&sort=match

Ah..., blurry photo interpretation...always fun. Bang Head

Where's that dead horse emoji when I need it?

 

  • Member since
    March, 2017
  • From: West Virginia U.S.A
Posted by Matt B on Saturday, March 18, 2017 12:29 PM

Well, I guess at the end of the day we just have to go with the most educated guess and conclusion we can come to. It wouldn't be a 1st in the history of man. It's a hobby and for enjoyment after all. I think even Pentland uses some artistic interpretation in his work. Mig Jiminez is big on that point. I'm going to go with your suggestion and just back date it a little. I've read the same concerning the red oxide base coat. I think it will turn out nicely. Looking forward to sharing it wth u. Thank you for your time and help. I'm going to have to use my wife's coveted laptop to upload the pics. 

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