Tiger 132 Tunisia Colors

Purchased a printed copy of the book online.  Unfortunately it is the 2004 error print, but it was very cheap, so no loss.  One can only surmise then that the shades in the posted photograph are off, making them look darker.

I think that I see the problem here, Jack. My printed copy (2004) seems to run those two units together into one narrative! The PDF file (2014) is different! Good catch!

... ok, well hold the phone.   I have the pdf version of Schneider's book being referenced, thanks to Amazon kindle.  It was easy to search the body of text for "the first tanks delivered still had the grey paint and were not painted any further." and this is in the section for the 502 unit.

Under the section of the 501st, the author mentions 'all vehicles of this battalion were painted sand olive before transport ot Africa.'  

regards,

Jack

Tigers and Panzer III's of sPzAbt 501, as well as Tigers of sPzAbt 504, were all tropen painted before shipping to Tunisia.

It does make sense, but what I'd read prior had stated that all were painted Africa colors before shipped.

Well gray tigers in africa only sense  looking at historical  photos there was lots of gray material delivered to africa. Guns truck uniforms and such.

LOL.  TMI on posting location.  132 is said to be one of the first three tanks in Tunisia.  I can see where unit/vehicle identification numbers could get mixed up as the same were used in Russia, albeit with a smaller font.

Richard -

Schneider's remarks on Turret No. 132 appear in Volume I of "Tigers in Combat" (2004) under the sections for both the organization and camouflage/markings for 501 s.Pz.Abt. 

Any references to 502 may be my mistake - in utter honesty, most of my posting is made while on the toilet. Hard to balance a book on my lap and type accurately with the tiny keyboard on this tiny keyboard.

But, Schneider is quite specific about #132 arriving in theater as a part of the third platoon added to the first company weeks after the first two. As I mentioned, check his homework - review the bibliographical notes and cross reference his words to the source material.

Knight, thanks for that.  The only issue is that 502 was in Russia.  This tank was with the 501 in Tunisia.  What volume addresses the Tunisian tigers?

NT5150 thank you know I need to find schneiders work to have his reurch for myself. 1 of my fun things to enjoy is to paint my models in exotic scheems.

Stickpusher thank you. Have seen opocolyps ww2. Not sure where it's at on the DVD but they explain how there program works. I understand your opinion and agree with you. While I was was watching it I was thinking the same. I'm going watch tomorrow.

blackdog62

 

I wish the rest of us had access to the program the the documentary guys used on opocolyps ww2 that accurately takes black and white print and adds the correct color. what a great tool that is for resurchers.

 

Unless you know what type of film was used, and if any filters were used by the photographer, it’s educated guesswork at best to colorize black and white photography. Some films are blue sensitive, and others red sensitive. If any lens filters are used, it throws off the equation that much more. Then add on any weathering for fading, new batches of paint, etc. 

When actual color photograpy of that period is compared to colorized photos, the difference is pretty obvious.

This Tiger may be referenced by Wolfgang Schneider's "Tigers in Combat" as part of 3rd Platoon of the first company in 502 schwere-Abteilung, which was deployed in theater in late September/early October of 1942.  He notes that "the first tanks delivered still had the grey paint and were not painted any further." Indeed, the proper color through Schneider's research is the Panzer grey for this machine.

The gloss on the barrel is something which pops up in photos from 1942 onwards in both 501 and 502 photo archives. The replacement barrels for the 88s were supplied in continental Panzer grey which had been treated with corrosion inhibiting oils for the trip to North Africa.As to how this is found around hatches, these too were treated for transport to protect the watertight seals.

Tanks delivered in early 1943 to 2ND and 3rd companies of 502 were painted yellow-green at the factory and 'thick olive green snake-like lines were added' in theater. All of the Tigers of 501 'were painted in sand-olive prior to transport to Africa'. He notes that 2ND Company of the 501 began using "olive drab captured from US stocks', noting that the paint 'was darker than the sand-olive' and better suited for the terrain this formation operated in during the Tunisian campaign.

The various shades of paint are cross referenced by Bundesarchive documents, divisional and company records, unit veterans, and so forth if any of you want to check Schneider's homework. 

I often wonder about the shine also. maybe after being climbed on kind of buffs it and putts a shine on it ? I see the same around hatches.

I wish the rest of us had access to the program the the documentary guys used on opocolyps ww2 that accurately takes black and white print and adds the correct color. what a great tool that is for resurchers.

Being the guy who started this thread, I was just curious as to what other's thoughts were on the color of 132 in the pic, since it appears to be darker than the colors mentioned -- more like grey -- or than those seen in other pics. It even appears to have a gloss to it.

howdy all. I study colors quite a lot. I haven't heard the story of the British tanker that seen green tigers in North africa. in 41 one of the colors used by the  German army there was RAL 800 which is also referd to as grunbraun (green/brown) a Brit. tanker could easily seen that color as green. I can show several of my clients the same color and get several colors back in reply. on the other hand the germans were quite good at using any material they could salvage such as the Italian French or u.s. colors. considering how long this debate has been going on unless some 1 finds tec. manuals or solid confirmation it's going to be the modelers decision. in 43 at kursk there was defiantly green shaded tigers other than olivgrun? if anyone has that color i would be grateful.

Well, perhaps due to photos like the one in the original posting, and from eyewitness and intel reports of folks who were there at that time. 

I know that these discussions will never change anyones mind, yours FP, mine, nor the guy who started this thread. 

Tropen scheme

RAL 8000 Base color

RAL 7008 Camo color

RAL 8020 Equipment depending on specific tank

Source  www.tiger1info.com 

501st Tigers in Olive Green are the ones in question, not 503rd. The Bovington Tiger is from 504th. While it’s restoration certainly authenticates tropen colors for that unit and tank, it does not do so for the 501st Tigers.

The green Tiger myth ended a few years ago when the restored Bovington Tiger was revealed. 

Current thinking is that sPzAbt 503 had Tigers in tropen colors of RAL 8000 and 7008 in Russia. The famous photos of #332 stuck in the mud are explained now. 503 veterans described the color as "dark yellow green gray"

Sounds like tropen colors to me.

See Bryden's website,it is very helpful,he is the Tiger I guru without a doubt

T26E4, my observation of the darker color being panzer grey is based on the educated assumption that all german vehicles were initially panzer grey at the factory and most times when first out in the field.  The shade/sheen is simply too dark to appear to be any other color used there. The dust is also so much lighter. It could also be that the difference is in the photograph itself as other pics of this tank, looking painted, also/still show the weld marks left when the skirts were installed.

I've read many of the discussions regarding the correct colors used and, yes, the debate seems to not have been fully resolved. At this point, being relatively close seems to be good enough. 

Well, I do trust the Peter Gudgins book The Tiger Tank. His own experiences as a British tanker fighting Tigers in Africa, and later as an intelligence officer analyzing captured German armor, including Tigers, says otherwise. Certainly his credentials do carry authenticty. 

Like I said, it’s debatable.

Here is David Byrden's summary of sPzAbt. 501 Africa color schemes;

http://tiger1.info/EN/Tunisian-RAL8020.html

There are two items being addressed in this thread.  First, the b/w pics you have posted --simply because the 2nd one is darker, is no evidence of its being painted dark grey.  All sPzAbt 504's tanks were painted in tropen colors before arriving in Africa in March '43.  Earlier, spzAbt 501's Tigers were had their tropen schemes applied before they arrived in Nov '42.  

The old myth about "captured US olive drab" or "Italian paints" has been put to rest long ago by careful unearthing of documentation by leading researchers like Jentz and Byrden.  Indeed, the newer information is swinging the argument the other way.  Previously, some clearly tropen painted tanks were diverted to Russia in '42 and '43 (with the impending loss of Africa and the urgent needs in Stalingrad front and elsewhere).  Now, research has emerged that some previously-assumed dark grey Tigers in the northern front were actually in the tropen scheme -- diversion from Africa-bound stocks -- instead fighting in the northern battlefields of Russia!

Well that’s where the interesting part comes in. Depending upon the version of the story that I’ve read, some say it was locally obtained, French or Italian color before shipping, or possibly captured US olive drab after arrival in Africa. I did quite a bit of reading on this when I built my Tunisia Tiger about five years ago. I ended up choosing an Italian olive green. But in all honesty there is no way to prove you 100% right or wrong. Tunisia in fall, winter, and spring is quite temperate and verdant compared to many other areas of the North Africa campaign. And as you can tell by photos, some 501st Tigers appear to be too dark to be in the 1942 Braun color. 

So you're thinking it might be olive green (the darker version of graugrun) rather than panzer grey? Still seems darker in the pic.

There are several accounts of Tigers in the 1st Company, 501st Heavy Tank Battalion, being repainted in Olive Green either immediately prior to or shortly after arriving in Tunisia. It is debatable, but one possibilty.