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Usable plastic Schurzen (Pz. IV) ?

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  • Member since
    May, 2016
Usable plastic Schurzen (Pz. IV) ?
Posted by Hobbie on Thursday, September 20, 2018 1:35 AM

Hello everyone,

 

I'd like a quick opinion...

 

I got an Academy Panzer IV ausf H in the stash - the new mold, not the old 90's one.

 

=> https://web.ipmsusa3.org/content/panzer-iv-ausf-h-mid-production-wzimmerit

 

On basically every picture taken of that beast, even far from action, the schurzen are pretty loose if not torn off. The kit's are in one solide piece.

 

For those with any experience on the subject, do you think the kit's plastic one-piece schurzen are usable if I cut them off, or should I invest in some PE after market?

 

In any case, I need to get them loose and torn, as I am after that "in action" look...

 

I don't want to get caught again in the aftermarket vortex, but as it is a pretty obvious part of the kit...

 

Thanks already ;-)

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud : after a while, you realize the pig likes it.

  • Member since
    August, 2012
  • From: Parker City, IN.
Posted by Rambo on Thursday, September 20, 2018 1:52 AM
Problem with just cutting them apart is that they overlap. Also the plastic is probably out of scale. You could cut them apart and use them as a template for making some new ones out of styrene or I have used aluminum flashing for roofing before. Just remember to add the extra bit of overlap to them when making them.

Clint

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, September 20, 2018 2:26 AM

personally i would go the PE route, but Clints suggestion is a good one.

  • Member since
    March, 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:27 AM
Cutting them worked perfectly for my Dragon Jagdpanzer,but they were nicely scaled by Dragon,very thin.The template method sounded reasonable

  • Member since
    May, 2016
Posted by Hobbie on Thursday, September 20, 2018 4:39 AM

Lazy *** that I am, PE is now in the mail Whistling

 

I was about to buy the very nice Dragon kit, which has every goodie included, on Ebay before the Academy basically fell on my lap at my local dealer... It was a tie between those two, the Academy was cheaper, new tool, construction is simpler, zimmerit is also included, the markings are the same, gun barrel is one piece... I just wish I didn't have to order AM, but the Schurzen are an important part and I don't trust my craftmanship Whistling

 

Thanks a lot :-)

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud : after a while, you realize the pig likes it.

  • Member since
    November, 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, September 20, 2018 7:42 AM

Yeah you can make them with thin sheet plastic like 'for sale' signs. But the PE is thinner, looks better, and if you want to distress it bends much more like the real thing. I think you made the right choice there, the PE skirts are more than worth the money. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    March, 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:40 PM

Now I could be wrong,and i'm sure someone will have a picture,which is fine,but I don't think the plates didn't bang up and twist like fenders,bullet and impact holes yes,but I didn't see pics of builds or the real thing twisted or dented like fenders.

By the way these are the plastic ones I cut up


  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, September 20, 2018 12:45 PM

Go missing.

  • Member since
    September, 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Thursday, September 20, 2018 1:13 PM

GMorrison

Go missing.

?????

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    September, 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, September 20, 2018 2:00 PM

Looking at photos of the WW2 German armor that had skirts, the most common battle damage I see is that pieces go missing. They are just sort of hanging on there I guess so that they wouldn't be hard to remove to get at the wheels.Sorry for the short response.

  • Member since
    December, 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, September 20, 2018 2:34 PM

GM is correct, the plates were simply hung on hangers that were part of a rail that ran along the hull. Not only did it ease serviceing, also mean that is the plates got snagged, they just came off rather then fowl the vehicle.

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Thursday, September 20, 2018 11:06 PM

According to researcher/author Hilary Doyle, Schürzen is about 5mm, so at 1/35 scale you are looking at about 0.14mm thickness.  As  mentioned, these were hung in place, not welded nor bolted on, though the rail that held them in place was.   Along with ease of access to the running gear, I imagine the loose fit would help negate the chances of them getting entangled into the running gear if they did get snagged or hit by something larger than a AT rifle round (which is what they were originally designed to combat against).

Also not aware of them being overlapped.  I have done one build with PE skirts and instructions did not indicate this method, maybe they missed something?

Having them all dinged up is a likely a spanish school effect. 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

  • Member since
    August, 2012
  • From: Parker City, IN.
Posted by Rambo on Thursday, September 20, 2018 11:27 PM
Look at the photo the op posted you can clearly see they are overlaped, was they on every panzer? I don't know. From alot of the photos I've seen with them attached you can see a overlap and in some photos that have a missing plate you can see the red oxide primer where the other panel overlaped it before the camo was sprayed over them.

Clint

  • Member since
    May, 2016
Posted by Hobbie on Friday, September 21, 2018 1:31 AM

Yeah, the overlapping is common and those pictures were taken away from the front, prior to D-Day ; though it is slight, the overlapping is always there and you can see how loosely they hang.

 

And indeed, nearly every Panzer IV that has seen a few days of fighting seems to have lost part of or all of its schurzen.

 

Well! Let's now hope I don't screw it up now! Dead

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud : after a while, you realize the pig likes it.

  • Member since
    April, 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Friday, September 21, 2018 1:35 PM

Gentlemen, thank you for the enlightenment - never too old to learn something new.  It does appear it was standard for Panzer IV shurzen to have the overlap.  It's interesting too that there would be examples where the overlap, when exposed, would have primer visible - would think the base colour be painted up properly at the the factory?

Here is an example where overlap is noticleable where the skirts have shifted after camou was sprayed on (by either crew or field workshop):

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September, 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Friday, September 21, 2018 3:23 PM

GMorrison

Looking at photos of the WW2 German armor that had skirts, the most common battle damage I see is that pieces go missing. They are just sort of hanging on there I guess so that they wouldn't be hard to remove to get at the wheels.Sorry for the short response.

"Ach, so.  Ach, sooooooooo!"

Thanks, GM, and no sweat!  I didn't get your meaning.  Now it makes perfect sense!

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Tuesday, October 16, 2018 12:59 PM

The red oxide primer showed up everywhere specially in the later years. Most or some of the inside of the road wheels where left in red oxide as some of the hanging plates could be red oxide inside and camo color outer side or even the entire plate red oxide.

The side armor can be easily scored with a #11 blade and separated. Pe replacements look the best but you can cheat by sanding the edges at a steep angle leaving a thin profile. I did this to the old Tamiya Mk. IV and looked ok. The armor plates fell off during  combat and some were missing as seen on period pictures.

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
    May, 2016
Posted by Hobbie on Wednesday, October 17, 2018 1:26 AM

Clever! Thanks for the angled sanding tip! I'll check that out! PE schurzen arrived, as I plan on building a more or less banged up tank in action in Normandy, I think it will look better. But I also got a Tamiya Panther that will need partial schurzen, I'll try out this trick ;-)

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in the mud : after a while, you realize the pig likes it.

  • Member since
    November, 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Wednesday, October 17, 2018 9:33 AM

You are welcome. You can get the profile thin enough using a wide fingernail sanding board. Also I don’t believe the armor plates would have bent like the thinner fenders. Remember the armor plates were hard  steel designed to detonate ap rounds prior to reaching the hull sides so they were pretty stiff. Scuffs and scratches were the usual marks on those.

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

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