Seeking Information on the Academy Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf. H/J + Italian Panzer IV Image

How is your Pz IVH build progressing?

Sorry I am late to this thread, just subscribed.

I really like Panzer IV's, especially the 'Lang' versions.

You've had great help already, I see. Just confirming that the vehicle in the photo is indeed a PZ IVH, manufactured by Nibelungen in June 1943.

The tank in the photo had these distinctive features, PZIVG drive units and their corresponding sprockets, an early 'coke bottle' shaped muzzle brake. The right side upper hull lacks a vision port, although the left side is still present (seen in another image), these were gradually deleted during early H production, but appear randomly as parts were used up at the factories.

The lower hull front plate is a 50mm plus a bolted on 30mm applique, the upper hull front plate is also 50mm plus bolted 30mm applique. 

This vehicle predates the application of zimmerit.

Check out Craig Ellis at 8wheelsgood on facebook, he has done amazing detailed research on the Pz IV, and has several publications available.

Thank you 

This overpass is in "Campo di Carne" on the Nettunense, near Anzio 

https://www.google.it/maps/place/Stazione+di+Campo+di+Carne/@41.5533345,12.6346513,436m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13259810dadcc521:0x682af353fdeebcb0!8m2!3d41.5520879!4d12.6349762?hl=it  

Thanks for the date correction Stik. Good to have multiple eyes on the narrative, I'm so focused on trying to find things I'm not paying attention.

This vacant lot corresponds to the location of "The Factory" and looks like it fits the bill.  Interesting that no one wants to build on the site, could there have been UXO leftover? Maybe it's a memorial?

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5910295,12.6552791,325m/data=!3m1!1e3

It's only about 1.7 miles from the quarry positions of the 2/157th.

This overpass has the straight beam roof and the stone abutments, it even has the barely visible power pole in the correct location...and...if you squint really hard...the concrete cube/footing/ thing to the left of the power pole. Sure wish I could get a better view, just off the SR207 and about 3000 ft north of Via Pontina;

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6003024,12.6446411,58m/data=!3m1!1e3

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5997266,12.6457759,3a,75y,339.33h,67.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sF8qCHYKXxsx0c33nePy7Yg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Best looking one so far, IMHO, and I've flown over a lot of track.

Hey! Look at the 3D view;

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5993686,12.6455286,59a,35y,326.72h,66.81t/data=!3m1!1e3

Note the ghostly structures on the tracks, just to the right of the crossing. This looks suspiciously like the objects in the photo. (although they could be "artifacts" of image processing, as some of the others nearby appear to be and why is it in the middle of the tracks?).  Something is there, however seriously distorted/image layover. We are only a mile and a quarter from the quarry, not too close to get shot at while taking selfies, not too far away to need to put your muzzle-cozy on, I think I may have a winner here! 

In order for our subject to approach to this rail-bridge, heading in a southerly direction, it would have passed through the large, (at that time flooded), farmer's fields which lay to the north, hence our dogeared panzer's personal hygiene problem. 

Dang! there goes the junket to Italy! 

OK, I'm satisfied, next question please!

Your results (and conclusions) may vary, and that's OK.

Ixion

I've tried a bunch of keyword searches, all to no avail. This guy appears to be camera shy and a loner without any friends. I can't even actually prove it was the 8th company of the 26th that operated here during Fischfang, only that armor of the 26th Pz. and 29th PzGr. was used here on the 18th of Feb, such are the limits of my resources.

Here's the book we don't have;

I did find some of his buddies after all. This pair from the 8/26th are seen months later KOed near Salerno, Sept. 14th, 1944

Note some important features; Older style drive sprockets?, (I can't really tell), welded tubular idler, side hull vision port still present, (which our subject does not have), late-style  tow coupling,  the rear vehicle appears to still have smoke dischargers fitted...and they could use a new bucket. The camo appears to be a very faded and/or dusty set of thin hash-marks, similar to others I've seen. No C-hooks to be seen, or the bracket, which would help with the production date. Maybe they got stripped off, or not there to begin with. The balkenkreuz on the near vehicle appears to be partially obscured, as it lacks the higher contrast of the white areas compared to the rear vehicle's cross.

And check this out! A colorized shot of his brother, 812, lost on July 17th, more than 150 miles north in Pontedera, near Pisa. (scroll down the page);

https://m.blog.naver.com/yumiun/220944184708

Other Panzer IV's in the area are seen after the battle, in need of a tune-up and some minor body work; 

"Don't worry Captain, we'll buff out those scratches later" - Spongebob

 

I suspect that the dating on the Salerno caption is off by a year, and should be 1943, not 1944. Salerno was captured then, and by September of 1944 would have been a backwater. Naples had fallen to the Allies in October ‘43, and would soon be reopened as the prime supply port in that area. Those appear to be engineers checking for mines and UXO, which would be more likely in the immediate aftermath of the fighting, and not over a year later after the main forces had passed thru the area. The dirt on the tracks would likely have been washed off by a years worth of rains. Just some thoughts on that...

Time to fire up the Storch and fly around some more. I'd think that villa with the Panthers might have a chance of still being around, but having the rail-line right next to the Panthers is telling. Probably not to many places were that occured.

Note that the Panthers are squeaky-clean, no mud at all and they are wearing their muzzle-covers, indicative of a prolonged road march and their relative distance from the front.  Concerning the opening phase of Fischfang on the 16th, Anzio 1944 states; " The German infantry assaults were supported by Panzers that would sally out of "The Factory" (in eastern Aprilia), pummel the US trenches with gunfire, and then return to "The Factory" to replenish their ammunition." Need to go find "The Factory", (shouldn't be hard), and see what things in that area look like.

Ixion> I had seen the book on the 26th PzDiv. but figured it was out of print.  The photos are great, and I understand the 26th was just about wiped out in its retreat across the Po river.  I suppose those are remnants of that retreat.

I did a little more Google driving, and have revised my estimate of where that Panzer IV photo was taken.  I'm now leaning more towards the Via Pontina overpass that you posted earlier, though the road one and not the railroad overpass.  I was looking at an earlier post where I first pointed out the Panzer IV at the overpass, and there were a couple of other photos of the German attack in February.  This is the link.

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/11/30/26-panzer-division/

I noticed that in the image of the Panthers, it's obvious they are in a built up area as there are streetlamps on the side of the road (on the right).  To the left, where the man is standing, if you zoom in you can just make out railroad tracks crossing the sideroad.  The SR207 has a railroad running parallel to it from at least the Flyover up to Aprilia.  This is only a rocks throw from the quarry you earlier ID'd as the site of the attack against the US 2/157th and 2/179th Infantry, 45th Div.  Perhaps this was where the attack stopped.

On a second examination of the overpass of the Via Pontina, I discovered that on the other side of the highway, the brickwork (stonework) on the abutments are similar to that seen in the Panzer IV photo.  You can get a street level view on Google.  What to my mind helps strengthen this is since this is the area the railroad runs parallel to the highway, and this overpass is closest to the quarry, it seems more likely this is the one.

I will point out that the Panzer IV photo shows a straight across member for the overpass and not an arch.  I think this is more typical of road construction than a railroad overpass (although the tunnel is half and half at the Via Pontina, one side of the road is straight, the other arched).  Still, if the Panther photo and the Panzer IV photo were taken at the same time, and the column were halted near the battleground, it seems likely the Via Pontina overpass would be the one the Panzer IV photo was taken at.

Not a conclusive argument by any means, and too many "ifs, ands, buts".  I did try to identify the house seen in the Panther photo which is on a slight hill, but nothing conclusive.  Anyway, that's my latest thinking, and it may change tomorrow depending on the weather, which is cold and damp. 

Gary

I've tried a bunch of keyword searches, all to no avail. This guy appears to be camera shy and a loner without any friends. I can't even actually prove it was the 8th company of the 26th that operated here during Fischfang, only that armor of the 26th Pz. and 29th PzGr. was used here on the 18th of Feb, such are the limits of my resources.

Here's the book we don't have;

I did find some of his buddies after all. This pair from the 8/26th are seen months later KOed near Salerno, Sept. 14th, 1944

Note some important features; Older style drive sprockets?, (I can't really tell), welded tubular idler, side hull vision port still present, (which our subject does not have), late-style  tow coupling,  the rear vehicle appears to still have smoke dischargers fitted...and they could use a new bucket. The camo appears to be a very faded and/or dusty set of thin hash-marks, similar to others I've seen. No C-hooks to be seen, or the bracket, which would help with the production date. Maybe they got stripped off, or not there to begin with. The balkenkreuz on the near vehicle appears to be partially obscured, as it lacks the higher contrast of the white areas compared to the rear vehicle's cross.

And check this out! A colorized shot of his brother, 812, lost on July 17th, more than 150 miles north in Pontedera, near Pisa. (scroll down the page);

https://m.blog.naver.com/yumiun/220944184708

Other Panzer IV's in the area are seen after the battle, in need of a tune-up and some minor body work; 

"Don't worry Captain, we'll buff out those scratches later" - Spongebob

Well, I'm sure there are funds somewhere!  Since Trump donates his salary to charitable causes, perhaps we could apply... studying border security or something.    Hey! Worth a shot!

No, I haven't tried finding any photos on the same roll.  The only reason I found this one is because it had the number at the bottom of the image.  Wouldn't know where to begin, and don't know if the images are even in sequential order.  Would be nice.

Gary

PS> Try typing something else into the search box, such as "Nettuno" and "1944" in the year.  You get some interesting pictures (including our Panzer IV) that way.

GAF

Let's find some funds to take a research trip to Italy.  Maybe apply for a Federal Grant to study Italian battlefield sites? 

Riiiiggghhtt....      Which shut-down Federal agency do we apply to for the funding again? 

I haven't gone back to the Bundesarchiv to see what else might be on this roll of film, assuming anything? Have you looked?

I may be a total box of rocks here, but I can't seem to figure out how to search sequentially on Bundesarchiv.de.  Changing -06 to -07 doesn't do the job.

I'm no expert on Italian railroad tunnels or overpasses, so the height is something that is just a guess.  Could be higher as you suggested due to a trick of the photograph.  I did note the concrete structures at the top of the slope which seem more in character for a railroad than a roadway, but even that's a guess.

I do wish I could get a better look at the overpass to the left of the one I posted.  From a distance, it does have the sloped abutment like in the photo of the Panzer IV.  I will say that I like it better than the one the SR207 runs under as I think the slope on the abutment is not steep enough, though the brickwork (stonework) is similar.

Let's find some funds to take a research trip to Italy.  Maybe apply for a Federal Grant to study Italian battlefield sites? 

Gary

Upon reinspection, I think you're right that the Tank+tunnel photo appears to be too small for a rail tunnel. Not enough headroom by the time you put him on a flatcar. So much for that theory.  Unless we want to talk about possible telephoto lens distance compression effects or other conspiracies. 

I looked at the other locations up the road. They certainly are good candidates and show the same type of brick-work. My primary thought is that they aren't far from the front. The riders seem more alert than merely posing for the PK photographer. That and the fact our muzzle is exposed, which it would not be on a long road march in the rain and mud. Those Panzergranate 40's aren't going to fly so great down a barrel full of grit.

My other question is this; If a train track is not involved, why the overpass instead of it being merely a road intersection? The Italian Autobahn, (Ha, ha), a spiffied-up Roman aquaduct or something of that nature? I don't know, most of these roads at the time are more like goat paths than freeways. Half kidding about the aquaduct...

Duh...If they were rolling down a railroad line, there would be heavy soot on the overpass.....no soot...clean and white in fact... OK, maybe a train track on top then?

I do agree that the pursuit of a location is rather fun, if frustrating.  I've done that with a few of my own old family photos with varying success.  Oddly, I was going to say that the overpass shown in the Panzer IV photo seemed too low to be a railroad underpass.  Such are the vagaries of opinion. 

Oh, one thing the photo I posted of the overpass is that it does show that type of brickwork was being used in the area.

Gary

Well, the ravages of time, war and new development have probably erased any definitive proof of our muddy Panzer's passing long ago, but it's fun to look! My main problem with the Campoleone di Lanuvio crossing is the apparently low ceiling compared to the Panzer photo. Let's face it, it could be any number of tunnels in the area. I just found the coincidences of my study to be compelling, but of course, by no means conclusive. 

As for the Fahrgestellnummer vs. deployments, that has yet to be investigated, but I'm pretty sure I don't have that information, at least on Panzer IV's. Oh well....

Ixion> Interesting observation.  It is possible.  I do note that these are under the Via Pontina, and this roadway has obviously gone through some extensive rennovations, so final ID may be impossible.  I wanted to check some older maps to make sure there were tunnels there (if you haven't already).  I do note that there is actually an overpass for the Via Nettunense (SR207) just to the right of the overpass for the railroad.  If you look from ground level through the tunnel you see the same angled abutments that you see in the Panzer IV image.  Perhaps a holdover from an earlier structure?  Both have certainly changed since the second world war, so its hard to tell.

I've been trying to identify (without much luck) the structures that you can see in the Panzer IV photo on top of the slope.  It appears to be a building of some sort, but that's just my interpretation.

One other thing I noticed, and I may just be seeing things, but if you look at the copy of the image that you supplied, it almost appears as if there may be a sign on the tunnel wall at the top of the sloped abutment (on the brickwork).  It looks like some ID sign, and I think I can make out the letters "CH", but perhaps my eyes are playing tricks.

I think February / Early March 1944 is a good guess for the date of the photo.  Too bad we can't find something on this hull number or Panzer IV "813".

Gary

PS> While studying a map of the Anzio battlefield, I thought that perhaps the Via Pontina was a little close to the fighting, so as you stated about the 26th coming down SR207 I checked up along its route until I came to Campoleone di Lanuvio.  There I saw that SR207 runs under a railroad overpass just south of the town.  Using Google, I took a look at the tunnel and this is what it looks like:

Well, the brickwork certainly resembles the Panzer IV photo.  The archway is different, but who knows what work has been done over the years.  I did think that the structures I mentioned at the top of the slope might be concrete for railroad signs and signals.  Nothing certain, so add it to the list of possible candidates. 

Also, just to the left of this tunnel, there is another the railroad crosses.  It opens onto the town and a field, but no road.  I can't get a good look at it, but it too does seem to have those sloped abutments from the Panzer IV photo.  Another candidate.

Gary

Ok, this is a long shot, but follow me here: What if our slighty used and very muddy Panzer is passing under a road along a sunken railroad grade, (to minimize his exposure and stay out of the mud), on his way to the fight at The Flyover, which they did on Feb. 18th? Heavy winter rains had made the ground so soggy, "the Panzers were limited to the roads."

The main axis of attack for the 26th Pz. during "Operation Fischfang" against the US 2/157th and 2/179th Infantry, 45th Div. was along the Via Anziate, which runs parallel to railroad  tracks, and is now renamed the SR207,  (which coincidentally, is the road passing under The Flyover). The 2/157th was "holed up in caves to the west of the Via Anziate", the 2/179th was positioned to the east of the Via Anziate, about 3.5 km north of The Flyover. If you look on Google Maps, the western area is now a giant limestone quarry, (so much for the caves, (I'm a caver and geologist)). If you follow SR207 (formerly the Via Anziate) north to Aprilia to where it crosses the Via Pontina, you will find this, just to the left of the intersection;

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5893018,12.6385419,3a,75y,15.39h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su5aEppSTHZ9lHCcnxCecBA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

View from above;

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5883146,12.6351573,1143m/data=!3m1!1e3

This bridge is over a sunked railroad grade that heads straight towards the positions of the 2/157th, merely 2000ft to the SW, in the area of the present day quarry. Presumably the occupants of the caves, (now the quarry) would have to have retreated by the time the photo was taken, (or maybe the fight was still active, as the Panzer doesn't have his muzzle cover on). These are the same railroad tracks seen in the photo passing under The Flyover. Certainly the overpass has been replaced long ago, but the geography, weather, timing and events all line up, along with acute angle of the intersection as evident in the photo. 

 See pages 57-65, Anzio 1944, Osprey pub.

On page 72 there is a statement on March 1st; "some PzKfw IV and Tiger tanks from the 26th Panzer Division which had captured a bridge southwest of Ponte Rotto." Might this be our bridge?

Ok, too many towns  and places in Italy with the same or similar names...

It said the fighting was near Carano;

https://www.google.com/maps/place/04011+Carano+Province+of+Latina,+Italy/@41.5726911,12.7167043,3012m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x13259ed00037a809:0x72785ceb5831063!8m2!3d41.5789455!4d12.7232303

This is about 5 miles NE of the Flyover.

Try googling Ponte Rotto and see what you get...

Ok, a map on page 70 clears this up. The Ponte Rotto mentioned doesn't even exist on Google. It used to be on the Via Aprillia, about 2 miles SW of Cisterna. This is not our bridge either;

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5796531,12.7967351,3a,60y,262.58h,88.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sC6rbHB5DamG5dW65E34Bdg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 

If we only had a date, it would make this hunt much easier! 

stikpusher

26th Panzer reaches the Flyover in the middle of a hellacious fight. A few panzers did make it past. But I doubt that the photo was taken then, if it was taken there....

here is a good write up on Anzio...

https://www.historynet.com/last-ride-at-anzio.htm

Yes, I agree.  After looking at the brickwork in both photos, it's obvious the Panzer IV is not at the Flyover.  Have to look elsewhere. 

Gary

Ixion

That our subject vehicle was photographed at "The Flyover", (as I now know it was called), crossed my mind too, although trying to prove this based on a single photo now seems dubious at best. Did 26th Pz. ever reach this spot? More research is required. Having a date on this photo would really help!

 

26th Panzer reaches the Flyover in the middle of a hellacious fight. A few panzers did make it past. But I doubt that the photo was taken then, if it was taken there....

here is a good write up on Anzio...

https://www.historynet.com/last-ride-at-anzio.htm

I will say that it appears the brick work on the Flyover and the overpass in the Panzer IV photo are different, so I would say the Panzer IV photo was taken elsewhere.  Similar design, however.  That Google 3d view is interesting, and allowed me to look around the bridge as it appears in more recent times.

Gary

A map on page 26 of Osprey's Anzio 1944, shows 26th Pz stationed to the east of Cisterna on Feb 1, 1944, about 10-12 miles ENE of The Flyover, also called the "First Overpass." 

Found this online, a view of the Flyover at a later period.

Gary

That our subject vehicle was photographed at "The Flyover", (as I now know it was called), crossed my mind too, although trying to prove this based on a single photo now seems dubious at best. Did 26th Pz. ever reach this spot? More research is required. Having a date on this photo would really help!

I too checked the Anzio battlefield map and it shows that it was a road overpass.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-A-Anzio/maps/USA-A-Anzio-10.jpg

Labeled "first overpass" on the left side of the map.  The railroad does run under the left-side tunnel.  It is quite possible that the shot of the Panzer IV is the "Flyover".

Gary

It's a road overpass with a rail line and road underneath. I just looked at some other images of it. I was just hoping it was a railroad overpass because that would make finding it a bit easier, A search of "The flyover" Anzio, shows other shots, including this present day Google Earth view;

https://www.google.com/maps/place/04011+Campo+di+Carne+Province+of+Latina,+Italy/@41.5528957,12.6348944,358m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x1325980d3a630bd7:0x2896945ff52e8626!8m2!3d41.5398199!4d12.641716

So much for trying to compare this with 1944.

I have to admit that I'm not up to speed on the Italian campaign, despite owning several books on it, including Kurowski's 550 page; Battleground Italy 1943-45, which I obviously haven't read... 

Ixion

Ok, good to to know. But just to be clear, it is a railroad bridge?

 

I’d have to look it up in my books. All I do remember is that there was a serious fight there during one of the German counterattacks on the Anzio beachhead. It was a critical defensive position.

To me it looks like an overpass.  The railroad appears to run through the left opening of the bridge (at least, to me).

Oh, and that image of the Panzer IV?  I took the time to look it up in the Bundesarchiv using the listed number.  It didn't have much information except that it was taken in Italy - Bruckenkopf Nettuno ("bridgehead" which I assume means battle line). Here's a link.

https://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/cross-search/search/_1548086110/

Upon studying that Panzer IV again, I must admit that it is a weather-worn, beaten up old tank!  The mud guards are torn and twisted and it's missing its left fender.  Its seen better days.  "Sunny Italy" has not been kind!

Gary

PS> Apparently this site does not like linking!

Ok, good to to know. But just to be clear, it is a railroad bridge?

M1GarandFan

Just fyi, and I may be wrong, but that picture appears to be what was called the "flyover" at Anzio.

 

Yes, I believe you are correct on that.

Just fyi, and I may be wrong, but that picture appears to be what was called the "flyover" at Anzio.