M48A5 Patton 1970s-80s Paint Schemes, Markings?

I was working at MATES at Ft Stewart when the 218th Brigade from South Carolina turned in their 60 some odd M-48A5s assigned to 2/263 AR and B/713 Cav back in 1987 . We spent the next two weeks cleaning and repairing them . We changed tracks. We put in new batteries, air cleaners, replaced clutch housings and made them better than what we normally would when the S.C. guys would park em after AT and MUTA. Next thing you know, those like new M-48s were loaded at the railhead, sent to Charleston and shipped to Morocco where they were purchased as part of an arms deal . Understand a couple of years later , some of the S.C. Guard guys run into a Moroccan task force pulling area security at one of the Saudi ports just before Desert Storm started and low and behold, there's a battalion (-) of the same M48s that were in the 218th. They still had the same woodland camouflage and a couple even still had the faint remnants of 218BDE 2 /\ 263 on the nose. Small world

Rob, this is really interesting- yet another example of what actually goes on in the Army- vs. what the so-called "experts" insist happened- what never makes it into the history books! Training up for Bosnia at Ft. Dix in 2002, we used 1942-dated .50 cal ammo in our Ma Deuces- because we had training interrupted due to an ammo shortage, and some smart E7 or so found a warehouse of pristine 1942 ammo down South. I'm sure the so-called experts (who've never served) would insist no such thing ever happens in the actual Army.

I've looked at a few old pics of some of my M1A1s from the 1/104th CAV, and yeah, they look vaguely like the NATO 4 or 3 color camo, but not much like the precise patterns on the Tamiya instructions! Probably free handed with chalk by the Article 15 crew just as you mentioned.

Same deal with my Humvees in Bosnia- the "SFOR" stencil in white on the doors is in a font unlike any others I've seen in photos, on models, etc...I'm sure if I do a model based on my actual vehicle, some "expert" will tell me the SFOR font is "wrong."

Another danger of modeling I've learned to avoid is the tanks in the museums...as you know, they've oftened been "slicked up" by some well-meaning volunteer who figures, "Yeah, I know this tank never wore such a scheme/name/artwork- but wouldn't it look cool?" We all know that especially is a danger with warbird models.

Thanks for the photos and the background info of the M48A5 from the CA ARNG. I've very tempted to do one, 'cause that's just not a common scheme to see- it wasn't all NATO 3-and-4 color camo in the 1980s! That finish looks like the M247 SGT Yorks you see once in a blue moon, in MERDC desert camo.

In my book on the Abrams, I mentioned that while the Desert Sand paint with sideways "Vs" are associated with Desert Storm, they were in use well before- I included a photo of an M1 called "BOOGIE MEN" during a NATO FTX in Turkey around 1987 or so, and it has a "Desert Storm" paint sheme years before the Gulf War started.

What do you think some typical bumper numbers and codes would be for those CA ARNG M48A5s you mentioned? And black codes, right? Thanks!

AUSTanker

Rob, what are some of your tricks to do an MERDC scheme in 1/35? Should I enlarge some profiles to full size on paper and then tape them on the model, paint one color at a time, lightest to darkest? It would be a real hard edge, right- no feathering?

The way we painted our A3, the tanks were painted entirely forest green by a crew of enlisted men using the paint sprayer that ran off of the deuce and a half compressor.

Then the platoon sergeants and tank commanders used an old photocopy of the MERDC scheme while they chalked off the various colors. At this time, the sand color of the 4-color scheme was eliminated. So we just used the base green and added the brown and black.

Now here's where it gets interesting. Some tanks got to use the paint sprayer, but others started painting by hand since there is only a few sprayers and 58 tanks. So you're talking about 18, 19...20 something year old soldiers painting these patterns chalked off with a sprayer or by big brushes you'd paint a house with.

They painted during the normal duty hours, except for the First Sergeant's _____ list (you know, the list of soldiers being punished and given extra duty). Those less than exceptional soldiers got to keep painting after dinner chow.

So you don't want to paint your tank, but you don't really want the duds who have been given Article 15 punishments painting your tank after hours in the dark?

Quality of the paint job varied greatly as did the camouflage pattern. Some of the more "high speed" tank commanders were very meticulous, others just got the job done. My -22 tank commander was a former 82nd Airborne tanker and very spit and polish. His tank was very pretty. I cared about my tank, and it was okay, his was much better.

Bottom line, you'll have hard edge from hand painting and soft from the paint sprayer. Some genious ground guide led his tank over the compressor air hose and obviously cut the hose so many of our tanks were completed by hand.

Here’s a Flikr photo thread I found, with many of the same photos. The first linked one is 40th ID, 185th Armor... CA ARNG. Having spent a good portion of my career with the Cal Guard, the photos with the grasslands and scrub oak is Camp Bob (Roberts), and the desert ones are the lovely NTC, aka Ft Irwin. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/brick6757/15851862355/in/photostream/lightbox/

Hey Brother, I was able to translate and it just says, "at a training base in the US-" not too helpful! It does look like NTC.

That is a truly cool paint scheme- not common. If only we could see some bumper numbers. I'd love to model some of these and then have some of the online "experts" tell me that this tank never wore that scheme!

Look at that one image where the Kiowa seems to be hovering 20 feet away frm the tank- wow! Where the heck is that, what unit? Now THAT's air cover!

And here is a link to some Asian website that has lots of M48A5 photos in Desert MERDC colors. Cany read the bumper codes, but the locale looks a lot like Camp Roberts in Central California, except for one possible Ft Irwin photo. I do know that the CA ARNG had the A5 at one point, and photos show them to be in desert MERDC at that time...

https://zi.media/@yidianzixun/post/svMdSV

Another found image... unknown location... terrain looks similar to California, but could be elsewhere... MERDC, pickle suit fatigues... Ma Deuce on the Urdan cupola...

Just found this photo... M48A5, 2nd ID Korea, BDUs & Steel Pots, so probably mid 80s. MERDC camo, no number codes visible, only those vinyl unit insignia flags....

AUSTanker

You said it...I'm baffled by Dragon's choice of decal schemes in their 1/35 M48A5 kit- check out the cover art...looks like a solid, almost OD green with circa 1943 or 1944 Italian theater style white star in a white surround on the turret. I've poked around online and dug through my books, but have yet to see an original source (1970s) photo of such a scheme used by 2nd ID, 8th Army, etc. in the ROK.

Rob, what are some of your tricks to do an MERDC scheme in 1/35? Should I enlarge some profiles to full size on paper and then tape them on the model, paint one color at a time, lightest to darkest? It would be a real hard edge, right- no feathering?

And what kind of PSI and paint thickness should I try on my Iwata? Guessing I want low pressure and paint as thick as milk, not too watery so it won't bleed under the paper templates?

I confess, I'm intimidated to paint an MERDC scheme in 1/35 with an airbrush. I have a pile of kits waiting for them in my stash, from M60A3s to M1s to M1A1s, but have been holding off at the thought of having to strip the whole model of all the paint if one of the four or five colors of the MERDC scheme doesn't come out right!

 

In the late 70’s/early to mid 80’s, vehicle’s were coming out of the factory or depot rebuilds usually in overall Forest Green, FS 34079, before CARC green came along in the mid 80s. This was the base color for many of the MERDC schemes. Those were usually applied at the unit level, based upon local conditions & foliage, plus (for stateside units) likely deployment areas. 

As far as the MERDC schemes themselves go, they can be hard edged or soft edeged. So you could airbrush on the base color, and then add the pattern colors with a traditional hand brush for a hard edge scheme. If you choose to airbrush, silly putty is a great masking medium and can be used to hard or soft edge patterns depending on how it’s applied.

AUSTanker

You said it...I'm baffled by Dragon's choice of decal schemes in their 1/35 M48A5 kit- check out the cover art...looks like a solid, almost OD green with circa 1943 or 1944 Italian theater style white star in a white surround on the turret. 

Maybe they got the idea from something like below. 

1ID WWII D-Day commemorative painted M1A2 SEP v2 tanks in Grafenwoehr, Germany. 

You said it...I'm baffled by Dragon's choice of decal schemes in their 1/35 M48A5 kit- check out the cover art...looks like a solid, almost OD green with circa 1943 or 1944 Italian theater style white star in a white surround on the turret. I've poked around online and dug through my books, but have yet to see an original source (1970s) photo of such a scheme used by 2nd ID, 8th Army, etc. in the ROK.

Rob, what are some of your tricks to do an MERDC scheme in 1/35? Should I enlarge some profiles to full size on paper and then tape them on the model, paint one color at a time, lightest to darkest? It would be a real hard edge, right- no feathering?

And what kind of PSI and paint thickness should I try on my Iwata? Guessing I want low pressure and paint as thick as milk, not too watery so it won't bleed under the paper templates?

I confess, I'm intimidated to paint an MERDC scheme in 1/35 with an airbrush. I have a pile of kits waiting for them in my stash, from M60A3s to M1s to M1A1s, but have been holding off at the thought of having to strip the whole model of all the paint if one of the four or five colors of the MERDC scheme doesn't come out right!

If you look close, they have added what looks like 2X4's to the top of the fenders in front of the sponson boxes and air filters. My guess would be to add more cammo if needed. Sorry, I was talking about the pictures of the tanks in Korea.

I don't think I've ever seen A5s painted in anything but some variant of the MERDC scheme. Photos of some out west were in a funky desert camouflage but it was MERDC.

I know 8th Army in Korea was more "go to war" than parade, so I don't see them having an operational tank painted in old school OD/white star. But they may have had an old tank in their division museum or on display somewhere that was dressed up as such.

The Dragon 1/35 M48A5 kit has an interesting decal...one scheme is from the 2nd ID in Korea in the late 70s, and it has a very WWII- looking white star with a white circle surround, like you'd see in the Sicilian or Italian theaters circa 1943-1944.

Not an expert on late 1970s AUS armor markings specifically, but I really haven't seen documentation or original photos of this marking out there? The plain white star on the 'Nam era M48s, sure, we've seen lots of images of that- and the crews quickly slopped mud on them to tone them down- but I wonder what Dragon's source was for this scheme, to put a very WWII-style white star circa 1943-1944, in a white surround, on a 1970s, 2nd ID, ROK-based M48?

Rob, I love the detail of the range flags- and the tank's bumper number stenciled onto the canvas spotlight cover! That's a detail modelers often overlook. My M1A1s in the 1/104th CAV had lots of interesting BII items with stencils like that, some regulation and some personal, that would have the tank bumper number on it- from bright yellow or red Igloo coolers (a personal item) in the bustle rack, to toolboxes. Sometimes a wooden ammo crate with the tank's bumper number sprayed on, to store whatever. Something like a cooler would often be stenciled with the tank's individual bumper number, to keep it from "walking away" out in the field.

Always amazes me how so many movies (and modelers) will depict tanks as slick, clean, no crew or vehicle gear on top. Recently watched the classic "Halls of Montezuma" and while it was neat to see dozens of Shermans in color, not a single one had any gear strapped on, and these are with four or five men living in them!

Here is a photo of another 8th ID tank, from the other tank battalion in our brigade (3rd Bde 8th ID). This was 5/68 Armor. No "I" after the 8.

AUSTanker

Rob, we need to get that photo to some decal makers! For 1/35 Abrams tanks, there are a few aftermarket decals for Desert Storm, and then jump forward ten years and we see a few for OEF and OIF...but for pre-1991, we have only the sound of crickets chirping....odd considering the new wave of M1, M1IP, etc. kits out there...there could easily be a massive decal set of "Cold War M1s," with color profiles in a booklet, covering the M1, M1IP, etc. to the M1A1 up to Desert Storm (yeah, keep dreaming, right?)

 

Very easy to do our battalion before we went to the chevron on the sides of the skirts. Just the two blocks of bumper numbers front and rear, several stencils and the US star. Tank name and Taz for the company mascot on the turret front. I used to have the battle board from the bustle rack, but it went missing several years ago. Almost a stop sign shaped board, but a seven sided heptagon, tan with a black square. Since my tank was the XO tank, it had a white X inside the square. CO's tank had a - (dash).

His tank was named AL CAPONE, but his gunner thought it was some sort of Italian phrase ALCAPONE, and didn't realize it was an infamous gangster's name.

Yes, 8th ID (Mech) 5/77 Armor. We didn't use the "I" but some units did.

I commanded three tanks during my years there; A-21 an M60A3TTS and briefly a blade tank, A-65. Then two M1A1s, the one above and then an M1A1 Heavy Common we got in 1990.

I didn't get to stay on that 2nd Abrams tank too long since the Lieutenant Retention Board of 1990 purged a good number of first lieutenants and we were scrambling to fill shortages. I had to become the HHC XO because that lieutenant was separated from the Army. We had a marginal second lieutenant get bumped up to be the support platoon leader (normally one of the top first lieutenants) because the previous one died in a motorcycle wreck.

Rob, was the bumper number for your tank 8th Infantry Division? Usually they stuck an I after the division number to designate an infantry division from an armored one. Also, I served with 2/77 Armor

9th Infantry division at Ft, lewis.

Ray

Rob, we need to get that photo to some decal makers! For 1/35 Abrams tanks, there are a few aftermarket decals for Desert Storm, and then jump forward ten years and we see a few for OEF and OIF...but for pre-1991, we have only the sound of crickets chirping....odd considering the new wave of M1, M1IP, etc. kits out there...there could easily be a massive decal set of "Cold War M1s," with color profiles in a booklet, covering the M1, M1IP, etc. to the M1A1 up to Desert Storm (yeah, keep dreaming, right?)

bee yoo tee ful!! If you know that a six pack of beer fits perfectly in the smoke grenade launchers, you might be an old Abrams tanker!

Yes, the Tasmanian Devil was our company mascot. The XO's tank was traditionally named "TAZ", but we had to come up with an "A" name. So I called it the Almighty TAZ II.

We were "Animal" Company and I was Animal 5 as the XO.

Rob Gronovius

My brand new M1A1 circa summer 1989.

 

Is that a Tas on the turret front?

My brand new M1A1 circa summer 1989.

AUSTanker

Good to know, Brother! That was my experience with the M1 and M1A1 Abrams tanks- we used what tracks were available, and it wasn't always the very latest model!

It amuses me to see tanks online where an "expert" will insist that tank A only used Type XYZ tracks, or the M1A1 was only equipped with the newer "Big Foot" tracks...As you know well, we used what we had, nobody quibbles on what exact model tracks are installed- we were happy to get a working tank. 

And with the M48 series up to the M60A3, there's some fun leeway on what tracks could be used from the 1970s up to Desert Storm.

 

Austanker, you are correct on the tracks. Here is a picture of my old unit in Desert Storm. Still running the old style tracks. 3/35 Armor, 1st Armored Division.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50815293_595387387566557_4711741198597881856_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_oc=AQk9cpyKk8pgX1NzIO44tcBD2Duui04wleOMbcXAzh05xysmMFVQpfFzotxDV0RBS3M&_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-1.xx&oh=d82ba27635c605549b435a115378af9f&oe=5DEA5EBC

Good to know, Brother! That was my experience with the M1 and M1A1 Abrams tanks- we used what tracks were available, and it wasn't always the very latest model!

It amuses me to see tanks online where an "expert" will insist that tank A only used Type XYZ tracks, or the M1A1 was only equipped with the newer "Big Foot" tracks...As you know well, we used what we had, nobody quibbles on what exact model tracks are installed- we were happy to get a working tank. 

And with the M48 series up to the M60A3, there's some fun leeway on what tracks could be used from the 1970s up to Desert Storm.

Hey Rob - I live 20 minutes from Drum - being a military brat my father retired here B/C he loved the area when his dad was stationed/training at Pine Camp (now Fort Drum) during WW2. I used to go climb on those M48s as a kid... and guess what? Some may still be there in the MERDC scheme - besides the Drum museum picture. The ARNG or Reserves, not sure which one, had some still when I last visited back in '07 or so. Brings back some great memories seeing that 'ol beast!

I should take a ride out there this week-end to see what's still there in the depot... they had a Sheriden there too.

Rob Gronovius

I don't feel that the quality of the Lo parts are worth putting on a kit beyond the Monogram M48 or Tamiya old M48.

That makes perfect sense. Especially with all the new M48 and M60 kits that we now have available.

I don't feel that the quality of the Lo parts are worth putting on a kit beyond the Monogram M48 or Tamiya old M48.

I bought both the Dragon M48A3 Mod B (originally to make an M48A5) and then the M48A5 when it was released. I was impressed with those two kits and they made me set aside my old Monogram M48A2 that I was tinkering into an GA2.

My only issue was that the Dragon M48A5 came with the T-152 tracks and the tanks I was on had the older T-97 tracks. Fortunately, I was given a set of the older style from a friend.