German AFV Antennas

That is what i said. the air support, I.E the pilot has a radio component in his aircraft so he can communicate with the ground troops direct on the BG net so they can direct him.

As said before, this Panther has both FuG5 and Fug.. well it could be an 8. at this moment it is totally filthy inside and until it is stripped down and cleaned, what we have is something that was at the bottom of a lake submerged and filled with mud and really smelly.

Fug 5 would be for platoon and company communications. the tactical number is 400 so that's the company commanders ride. He would need to talk to Batallion or Rgt.

I do know that this vehicle was built in March 1945 and took part in fighting around Seelow Heights with Pz Div. Munchenberg.

Snap, i  was in the British army for 22 years and i spent 6 of those driving a Warrior 511 command vehicle for a Company 2 i/c, that included 2 tours in Iraq. We never had a radio for talking to air support. If needed, the aircraft could switch to the BG net so he could talk to company commander or 2i/c. 

The Germans were the first to use Luftwaffe FAC's to direct air support (the FLIVO as mentioned above), and in the British army this is carried on today by TACP. Its the same with Artillery, you have a FOO party and for Mortars an MFC.

Of course, if your in a firebase, you have the luxery of extra radio's and you are in a fixed position with the surrounding features already marked. Its not so easy when on the move in an armoured vehicle.

If your company command vehicle only has 2 radio's and one of those is assigned to air support, that means you either can't talk down the chain of command or you can't talk up it.

I can't imagine that calling in air support is easy. If you need a FOO part with training, knowledge of the guns and specialist kit just to call in a fire mission, calling in fast air is not going to be left to some grunt on the ground if you can help it.

One source listed the Luftwaffe's FAC vehicle as being a SdKfz 250/4, but this is a twin MG-34 AA vehicle...that never reached production... 

It should be a SdKfz 250/3-1 (Fu 7, Fu 8, Fu.Spr. f) (Luftwaffe)

Ixion

From the US Army's war-time manual, Handbook on German Military Forces, chapter 10, page 14:

Liaison between the Army and Air Force for both army cooperation and tactical reconnaissance is provided by specially trained Air Force officers known as Flivos (Fliegerverbindungsoffiziere). The German Air Force support is requested to the competent headquarters authority where a Flivo is stationed. Such headquarters are generally those of Army groups. German Air Force Signal Liaison officers (Fliegerverbindungsoffiziere (Ln)) are stationed with Army corps headquarters and in some particular cases with division headquarters. A German Air Forces Liaison Officer is specially assigned to Army Headquarters for the purpose of directing close cooperation between the Army and German Air Force reconnaissance units (Fliegerverbindungsoffiziere (Aufklärung)). For the control of the close support missions, which as a result of these requests are ordered by the German Air Force Command (Fliegerkorps or Luftflotte HQ), special German Air Force officers are stationed at the front line. These control officers (Fliegerleitoffiziere) direct the flying formations to their targets by radio from advanced observation posts on the ground.

 

Now, presumably, like artillery forward observers, these attached Luftwaffe officers would have their own vehicles with the appropriate radios (and observation devices) for this purpose.

From the US Army's war-time manual, Handbook on German Military Forces, chapter 10, page 14:

Liaison between the Army and Air Force for both army cooperation and tactical reconnaissance is provided by specially trained Air Force officers known as Flivos (Fliegerverbindungsoffiziere). The German Air Force support is requested to the competent headquarters authority where a Flivo is stationed. Such headquarters are generally those of Army groups. German Air Force Signal Liaison officers (Fliegerverbindungsoffiziere (Ln)) are stationed with Army corps headquarters and in some particular cases with division headquarters. A German Air Forces Liaison Officer is specially assigned to Army Headquarters for the purpose of directing close cooperation between the Army and German Air Force reconnaissance units (Fliegerverbindungsoffiziere (Aufklärung)). For the control of the close support missions, which as a result of these requests are ordered by the German Air Force Command (Fliegerkorps or Luftflotte HQ), special German Air Force officers are stationed at the front line. These control officers (Fliegerleitoffiziere) direct the flying formations to their targets by radio from advanced observation posts on the ground.

But you’re applying British Army current doctrine in Afghanistan where units are spread out to WWII German Army usage. In the offense, depending upon the time period, the Panzer regiment or Battalion would be far more concentrated, and command elements closer to the battlefront. 

US doctrine is similar but different. Currently with USAF JTAC or CCT elements embedded down to whatever level the operation requires. In WWII in France in 1944, it was pilots rotated off a flight duty put in tanks up front with the advancing columns on the radio. In Korea and Vietnam, it was forward air controllers in observation aircraft or Fast FACs equipped with radios that could talk with ground troops and others with the strike aircraft acting as the middleman from their seat in the sky. Doctrine changes to match the situation of that particular war.

What was German WWII air support doctrine?

Think about this, Bish.

A company commander on the front line would first call Batallion HQ for their Air liason to task ground support.

Batallion HQ would task air support to the company through the Air liasion BUT it is no good HQ talking direct to the actual aircraft as they cannot see what is happening.

The Company Commander, who is actually controlling that fight knows exactly where he needs the tasked aircraft so it is more use him talking directly to the aircraft instead of Batallion or Regiment.

This is still how it works today. In Afghanistan when support is needed it is Batallion or Regiment that tasks that support but it is the company or firebase commander on scene that actually controlls that asset when tasked.

I have actually done this quite a few times myself in Afghanistan and other places and the A-10 Warthogs that supported us have radios built in so the pilots can talk directly to the mudgrunts and hit targets that are called out.

THe allies in WWII had a slightly different system in that a air liason guy would be embedded into a unit and it was he who when called on would task and control air support from the flying cab ranks of Tiffys, Thunderbolts and Mosquitos.

The air liason guys would have callsigns of the aircraft flights/squadrons in their area and could call them in directly.

Now the tasking goes from front to Batallion/Regiment. The task is then sent to the nearest flight and the callsign sent to the scene commander who then directs the tasked aircraft or artillery and on occasions, both.

So, it is quite common to find the FUG 5&7 in Company commander vehicles or if not installed, an acompanying 251 for deployed infantry with the Panzers. The Germans were the first to employ combined operations. THe Allies learned from them and from the Blitzkreigs that employed the combined operations.

If its got an FuG 7 i can't imagine its a Company Commanders vehicle. He would need to communicate with Battalion HQ not support aircraft. The Sd.Kfz 268 was rarer than the 267 and my guess is that it would be assigned to Batt or even Regt HQ.

That explains something to me. One of my recovered Panthers has an extra radio and anntennae base. Today, for something different to do I did a bit more looking around this still dirty and very smelly beast inside and with help from Google have recognised both FUG5 and FUG7 mounted inside. The tactical Number of the Vehicle is 400 so that's the 4th company commanders tank.

I think that once we get over this pandemic and lockdown and finish rebuilding the current softskin Opel Blitz and BMW bike and sidecar I think that we will start on this Command Panther. this means a complete stripdown and rebuild of EVERYTHING. By the time we have finished it will be factory fresh with working 75mm, radios, intercom etc.

Before you all start shouting. The 75mm will only fire blanks unless on a proper range for proofing and certification.

I would like to get my gang of veterans together as this lockdown is perfect for getting stuck in and a lot of things done, rebuilt, made, painted etc. However as we are all in the "vulnerable" category, safety comes first and we are all keeping in our own foxholes until all the idiots have killed themselves off.

As most of the shows, displays, re-enactments etc. we go to are cancelled, once we can all get back together then some serious work can be done. Maintainance of restored vehicles caught up on etc.

That is correct Bish, the standard AFV radio, the FuG5, used the 2-meter antenna, the command tanks used the FuG7 with a 1.4 meter antenna for communication with the Luftwaffe and the FuG8 with the "star" antenna for communications with the Army command.

http://tiger1.info/EN/Command-antennas.html

snapdragonxxx

I too use RB models for 1.5 and 2m wires.

https://www.rbmodel.com/index.php?action=products&cat=c_bm&sub=35A

 

Most often you can buy both the antennae and base together on Ebay

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2m-GERMAN-AERIAL-ANTENNA-W-BASE-to-TIGER-PANTHER-JAGDPANTHER-ETC-35106-AKKURA/362000253228?hash=item5448e5812c:g:jlgAAOSwcwhVLWaQ

 

Generally on german armoured vehicles platoon and company command vehicles had 2m, the rest 1.4m

 

I've always been under the impression it was the other way around. The 2m was used for the standard AFV radio's and the 1.4 was an additional antennae for command vehicles.

I too use RB models for 1.5 and 2m wires.

https://www.rbmodel.com/index.php?action=products&cat=c_bm&sub=35A

Most often you can buy both the antennae and base together on Ebay

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2m-GERMAN-AERIAL-ANTENNA-W-BASE-to-TIGER-PANTHER-JAGDPANTHER-ETC-35106-AKKURA/362000253228?hash=item5448e5812c:g:jlgAAOSwcwhVLWaQ

Generally on german armoured vehicles platoon and company command vehicles had 2m, the rest 1.4m

Very few kits include antenna's and that that do are often over scale. I use pre made metal antenna's by RB Model/Armorscale. They have both the 1.4 and 2m option, most vehicles carried the longer type. The German antenna's were tapered as Stik mentions.

While Stik is correct that all tanks had them, this is not the case for other vehicles. Open topped halftracks for example didn't all carry them until 1942.

1/35 scale.  Yes, some photos I have looked at show that.  Thanks.

John

What scale are you working in? But yes, brass wire, or music wire works great for the sectional type antenna rods used in WWII. But some vehicle types used a single length tapered rod, so check your references.

Thanks.  I will have to find some wire.  the trick is to get it "stiff" enough at that size to look right.   Need some guitar or piano wire I think.

john

pilotjohn

All;

I am wondering if all the German AFVs had radio antennas?  The kits seem to have the "hub"molded in, but very few have antennas.  Is it just a scale thing?

Many thanks.

John

 

Yes they did. At least during the early part of the war. It was one of their tactical advantages against other armies in that all of their tanks were equipped with receiver/transmitter radios. It was usually placed in the hull. And a crew layout to match, with the bow machine gunner also assigned to be the operator, at least on the Panzer III and IV.

By comparison in the Soviet Army, only the platoon leader had a radio receiver, not a receiver/transmitter, and controlled his tanks by way of hand/arm signals, or flags thru a small hatch when buttoned up. The other two tanks in each platoon had no radios, and only officers company commander or higher had two way radios. In the British Army, while having two way radios, most of their early war tanks also had a two man turret crew, so the tank commander had to double as loader, and command the tank, and operate the radio as well.