Can a Priest kill a King Tiger?

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dwight Ta-ala lead by a lone King Tiger (who by the way was responsible for taking out 2 M26 and 1 M4A3(76). Surprisingly, when the turret of the King Tiger was in full view (I pressume that from the King Tiger's point of view, the M7 is still hidden)...the Priest opened fire...and hit the turret. The turret was not blown off but the King Tiger was knocked out in flames. Can this happen in real combat?

I doubt it. I don't think the howitzer round could penetrate the thick armor. Games are different than real life.

The priest is a spg am I not correct ? They have huge guns that should be very capable of knocking out almost any armor , kinda like a m-109 against a M1 A2 , the m1 while much more armored than the spg would stand little chance against the huge shell of that gun, the HE version alone would blow the tank to shreads ! Luckily those guns are not used for that purpose , the m1 would probably lock in on it anyway and kill it soon before !

Tigerman: I guess my decision to withdraw my armor from the area was obviously reflective of my understanding that the M7 cannot hurt the KT. That's why I was surprised when it knocked out the KT.

Spector: You are right, the M7 Priest (M7B1 in the game) is a Self-Propelled-Gun carrying a 105mm Howitzer. The point you raised is interesting.

well lets put it this way , and I am no ballistics expert by any means here , but the panzerfaust , bazooka , and panzershrek , were all capable of knocking out almost any armor of that time , the russian RPG's so popular in afghanistan and iraq are capable of knocking out an abrams or any russian armor , those are tiny in comparison , but effective nontheless . Imagine the velocity required to launch a shell 12 miles or more , it must be just incredible , now that same shell fired point blank into a slab of steel , hmmmmmmmmmm , I would guess the steel would lose , but that is just a guess here .

Well to shed a little more lite on your question,, A M7 could concievably do it depending on how close to the King Tiger it was,,,, and were the round impacted on the turret. Now those are some pretty long odds I will admit but it could be done. If nothing else the crew inside the King Tiger was deffinatly hating life because I garuntee they had there bells rung when that 105 round bounced off the turret. Now what I am not sure of is whether or not there was a 105 AP round developed yet. I am just a FO in the National guard but I do believe nowadays the SPG's carry a couple ap rounds just for emergencys. If someone else knows better please feel free to chime in.

Rich, the rounds carried by the M7 at time of the game were all HE as reflected in the vehicle data.

Wow, this has become very informative for me.Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this guys.

A Priest is not very likely to kill a King Tiger with direct fire. However, a Priest shell plunging from a long range shot won't have any difficulties penetrating the thin top of turret or top of engine armor. It may penetrate inside and explode the vehicle killing the crew.

In a direct fire shot it won't punch a whole in the front or the sides BUT it may cause damage to the suspension, jam the turret and cause a major structural crack. The tank hit with direct 105mm fire may be basically split open like a banana and it happened many times in WW2 provided that direct hit was scored (which was highly unlikely).

A 105mm artillery shell fired at close range to a tank would simly piss the crew off and most likely bounce off the tank's armor. Artillery, especially HE rounds are not designed to penetrate armor. All the above mentioned AT weapons work in a different way than an artillery shell. The Panzerfaust and RPG, which are very simmilar, work by launching a shaped charge grenade that, once detonated when it makes contact with the tank, creates a concentrated molten jet at about a pencil eraser sized spot that simply cuts a hole like a blow torch through the armor. This creates a large amount of flame and heat inside the vehicle and subsequently sets it on fire. The bazooka and panzershrek were both AT rocket launchers, like the modern AT-4 or Javelin, that fire a rocket with a shaped charge on the end that explodes on contact and works the same as the above RPGs.

An artillery shell explodes on contact or at a predetermined hight above the ground and throws shrapnel, chunks of sharp metal, in all directions, shredding anything softer than the shrapnel that it hits. It also creates an overpressure that trhrows light objects around and throws up dirt, and other natural objects. It will not usually penetrate armor.

Gino,

Thanks for the info.

Just one more question. Can an HE round fired at the said distance create enough explosive energy to damage or disable a tank such as in this case, a King Tiger?

I've heard on some website that the front manlet of any king tiger's turret was never perced or punctered by any round or shell of any calaber during WW2. This means, out of the hundreds of King Tigers, no projectile ever went through the front plate. Seems plausible, it's so thick! Don't think so.

Perhaps Dwight found a shot trap weakness in the king ? NICE SHOT DWIGHT !

Gino,, when I saw your name at the bottom i kinda figured you would have the answer. As a FO my only concern is directing the Fire. and nowadays what with Copperhead rounds I stand a better chance against armour instead of the lucky round on top of the turret.

Dwight question for you....... What was your field artillery doing that close to the front anyhow?????? In most cases that kinda asset atleast knowadays anyhow is kept to the rear with the gear, and guys like me are up in the front lines directing it.

A copperhead round would melt a king tiger , had it been around back then , thats what those are for , killing armor !

QUOTE: Originally posted by feldgrau23 Dwight question for you....... What was your field artillery doing that close to the front anyhow?????? In most cases that kinda asset atleast knowadays anyhow is kept to the rear with the gear, and guys like me are up in the front lines directing it.

Good question, I am surprised that it took sometime for somebody to ask it. LOL.

Well, after clearing the town, I tought, I had taken care of all the German armor in the area and I have started moving my tanks into corners to ambush any incoming enemy. The first wave of counterattack was composed of mainly infantry and some halftracks. It was kinda difficult for the M4's to kill infantry especially because the terrain was irregular approaching the town. So I moved one of my M7 in the forwar position (quite well-hidden actually...) to take care of this. And it did until that KT came along and chewed up my Pershings and an M4A4(76).

By the way, my spotter was in the second floor of a building when it was plastered by German heavy artillery fire.

QUOTE: Originally posted by feldgrau23 Gino,, when I saw your name at the bottom i kinda figured you would have the answer.

Yah me too. I was sweating some bullets for a second with my earlier statement.

QUOTE: Originally posted by spector822002 Perhaps Dwight found a shot trap weakness in the king ? NICE SHOT DWIGHT !

If I did, I'd like to know how to do it again. Those pesky KTs can really mess up my armor. And I would be more than happy to give them something in return.

Dwight,,, That deffinatly answers that question. Did you have any mortors with you????

QUOTE: Originally posted by feldgrau23 Dwight,,, That deffinatly answers that question. Did you have any mortors with you????

Only one...60mm but did not do much damage. I think it just pissed off the Tigers and Panthers at the start of the battle.

Dwight I tmay have just pissed the Tigers and Panthers off,,,, but I would be willing to bet the Infantry that was tagging along with those Tigers and Panthers wasn't to happy.

With this game how effective is the mortor fire????? I know in the couple of games i have,, (Steel Panthers1 and 3) its not really all that effective. More of a nusense than anything else.

Quite effective especially in the open areas. But the mortar should be placed in a position where there is a good line of sight to the enemy. If not it will be more like an "area fire" and may not hit the target accurately especialy if the infantry are in the foxholes.

But the German 120mm is just devastating.

QUOTE: Originally posted by HeavyArty A 105mm artillery shell fired at close range to a tank would simly piss the crew off and most likely bounce off the tank's armor. Artillery, especially HE rounds are not designed to penetrate armor. All the above mentioned AT weapons work in a different way than an artillery shell. The Panzerfaust and RPG, which are very simmilar, work by launching a shaped charge grenade that, once detonated when it makes contact with the tank, creates a concentrated molten jet at about a pencil eraser sized spot that simply cuts a hole like a blow torch through the armor. This creates a large amount of flame and heat inside the vehicle and subsequently sets it on fire. The bazooka and panzershrek were both AT rocket launchers, like the modern AT-4 or Javelin, that fire a rocket with a shaped charge on the end that explodes on contact and works the same as the above RPGs. An artillery shell explodes on contact or at a predetermined hight above the ground and throws shrapnel, chunks of sharp metal, in all directions, shredding anything softer than the shrapnel that it hits. It also creates an overpressure that trhrows light objects around and throws up dirt, and other natural objects. It will not usually penetrate armor.

There is another option to consider - KE (Kinetic Energy) This can be applied in two ways:
1) A Sabot or Flechette(sp.) round. A sub caliber round traveling extremely fast that can penetrate armor. Quite often made of Depleted Uranium.
2) A large solid mass striking at high speed. The solid shot striking the armor plate knocks off 1 or more "scabs" of armor from the inside which ricochets around inside the vehicle. This can set off ammo, wreck equipment and mulch the crew.

I believe the second option could apply in this scenario.

Thanks for all the ideas, guys.

I find unlikely that a priest could kill a KT, but I don't know if its imposible.
But I have just killed a priest with a Pz IV in my Email game with Maddafinga

another thing to consider would possibly be the muzzle velocity of the HE shell when fired at the Tiger. Now someone can correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the SP have a smaller muzzle velocity than the average tank or tank hunter during that time frame? At that distance, it probably doesn't make a difference though...just a thought. Great game by the way!!! If I am not playing The Operational Art of War, I am usually playing that game.....just got into modeling about two weeks ago to satisfy my cravings for seeing armour in 3D!!

Ah, so many points to cover.

I've been playing CMBO since 2000. So, here are a couple of thoughts:

1. You will see armor battles in CMBO that can get a bit odd and you would be amazed by the results. For instance, I've killed a Jadgtiger with a Stuart in the past because the Stuart had tungsten rounds. You see the CMBO game had been patched a couple of times to make German armor easier to kill over all. There was a time in the game when any german armor was almost invincible vs Allied tanks. So, be glad that your Priest did so well because I've lost entirely too many of them to MG42's and mortar fire.

2. Dwight, you got lucky because you were playing vs the AI. When properly used, Panther G's can be deadly in combo with a KT. If I were playing a village scenario, I would have had my Ami bazooka's take them out. That flag is like sugar to the AI and they love to go straight for it. Just create kill zones and let your armor clean up anything that is left.

3. When playing vs the AI and also a human, be careful about putting your arty guy in a building when the AI knows he's there. Your platoon leader can be in command of him and you can use him to spot for the arty guy. It sucks when you lose those assets.

Thanks for sharing that After Action report. You did well vs the AI.

Getting back to the question of HE vs armour for a moment, I believe that the Russians had a fair bit of success using their large caliber (122mm and 152mm) HE rounds against German armour on the Eastern Front. The idea was to not bother penetrating the armour, but that the concusive force generated by a direct HE hit exploding against the target would rip the turret right off the vehicle, which would be just as effective a kill.

Now, those shells are a lot bigger than a 105mm shell from a Priest, and I don't know if the tactic was effective against King Tigers or not. Just my

Dwight, you live in a heavily-Catholic country, surely you know that a priest can do wonders with that holy water!

Anyway, if there are heavy tanks in amongst your artillery assets, you've got a lot more to worry about than whether the 105 can penetrate the heavy tank's armour.

I don't think the 105 could penetrate the frontal armour of a Tiger II under any circumstances, but I certainly would not want to be in the Tiger II when it took a hit from a 105mm gun.

One Allied gun was technically capable of penetrating the frontal armour of the Tiger II -- the 17 pounder firing special APDS ammunition, if it hit the turret front (very thick but not well sloped) or the lower hull (well sloped by not as thick). I don't think there's any examples of that, though -- not necessarily because the Tiger II was unbeatable, but because there just weren't many of them around, and many of the ones that were around were rendered inoperable by excessive use without proper maintenance halts (which the Tigers needed about every five seconds). You had to be a pretty unlucky tanker to have to face one of these on the front, in operating order and crewed.

In the battles outside Hungary in 1945, Tiger IIs repeatedly would take numerous hits from the 152mm gun on the ISU-152 and not get fully penetrated, though the armour was sometimes deeply gouged. The Tigers would attack these dug-in ISU positions against a superior number of defenders and basically kick butt. It was an amazing vehicle when it worked.

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrbridge Getting back to the question of HE vs armour for a moment, I believe that the Russians had a fair bit of success using their large caliber (122mm and 152mm) HE rounds against German armour on the Eastern Front. The idea was to not bother penetrating the armour, but that the concusive force generated by a direct HE hit exploding against the target would rip the turret right off the vehicle, which would be just as effective a kill.

Actually, against the Tiger I the 122 was able to achieve penetrations. This was a matter of great concern to the Tiger I crews. The fearless German crews' behavior could change quite rapidly when their armour was no longer invulnerable.

You're right, though, the impact of a 122 round against the front of any tank, no matter how thick the armour, would often cause massive injury to the crew, penetration or not. I've rad accounts of German tanks being hit over and over by American 75's, and though their armour held the crews often emerged bloody with broken noses and concussions.

Just for grins, it would be fun to figure out what an 8" howitzer would have done to a King Tiger with a direct hit. Remember, this is a gun the size of a heavy cruiser's, and fired a 200lb shell. [:0]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Larry_Dunn Just for grins, it would be fun to figure out what an 8" howitzer would have done to a King Tiger with a direct hit. Remember, this is a gun the size of a heavy cruiser's, and fired a 200lb shell. [:0]

Scrap metal.