Advice for first Sherman

Welcome! to the forums!
We have someone who can help you;
Sherm, need a little help in here...

yeah, Im sure Shermanfreak will come along and tell you which book you should go for.

Welcome to the "Wonderful World of Shermans" Marian.

In order to do an M4A1 for the Italy and North Africa, I'm afraid the Italeri offering won't make it. It is the late version of the M4A1 with large hatches and as you have already noted the late style 76mm turret. Taking a 75mm turret and dropping it on the hull creates a whole different series of problems as in the large hatch hull with 75mm gun has so far been only verified in D.D. configuration.

Probably the easiest way to create an early M4A1 would be to purchase a cast hull from Tank Workshop or Formations and use the Tamiya M4 as the donor kit. You'd also need an earlier version suspension set.
Formations does have a complete conversion available and are highly recommended.
DML did have a kit like this but it is OOP and sells for obscene prices on E-Bay.

Yes, the early M4A1s did have the 3 piece bolted transmission.

As far as interiors, you can use the Tank Workshop or Verlinden M4 interiors with some minor adjusting.

Reference books ..... for any one starting in Shermans and wanting to keep it simple and inexpensive I would suggest 2 Squadron offerings:
M4 Sherman in Action by Bruce Culver
M4 Sherman Walk Around by Jim Mesko
Both books cover the Sherman and it's history quite well for a low cost.

Have fun and don't be afraid to shout when you need help.

Sandbags.

More sandbags.

The upper hull for the Italeri M4A1 is improper for an early M4A1. It has the larger driver's hatches that open outward at an angle instead of the smaller hatches that open sideways. The large hatch hull is a D-Day and beyond variant.

The 76mm turret is a post D-Day type, so you have the right idea. It might have been easier to buy the Tamiya Early M4 and just get the aftermarket M4A1 cast hull. Then you could use the kit 75mm turret.

The initial M4A1 75mm used in North Africa used the 3-piece transmission cover. Some even used the older style M3 suspension bogies.

The later M4A1 cast hull from the Italeri kit probably did not use the 3-piece transmission cover, but I could be wrong. It is hard to say something never took place when dealing with Shermans.

Ican't answer your other questions; but in reference to the 3-piece tranny cover, the reference book I have says that the 3-piece cover was useduntil "production facilities could be developed to allow the 1-piece cover to be produced in quantity. By 1943 all Shermans built used the 1-piece cover." This is from "The Classic Sherman" by K.S. Schreier Jr.

Wow, lots of information! Thanks!

I already have the Italeri kit, and buying another one is not in the budget this week. Maybe I should just build a 76, and do the early M4A1 another time. According to usarmymodels.com, Italy got the 76 in August of 1944. Just in time for Operation Olive?

I *love* the Formations conversion, I've been drooling over it for weeks, but right now it's way out of my league budgetwise. Especially when much of it is stuff I either already have (like the turret) or don't want (like the cast transmission cover). I wish they'd offer the hull separately.

I didn't know Tank Workshop made one, though. $16 is a lot more doable than $55--is it any good?

QUOTE: Originally posted by shermanfreak You'd also need an earlier version suspension set.

How many different kinds of suspension were there? I thought there was just the two, the VVSS and HVSS. And that all M4A1s had the VVSS.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rob Gronovius It is hard to say something never took place when dealing with Shermans.

I know! So many different types of hulls and turrets and tracks and wheels and engine covers and transmission covers. Plus the British and Canadian stuff. That's what I what a reference for, more than close-ups for superdetailing that I'm not up to yet--to know which whatsis was used where, and when.


M.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ausf More sandbags.

You know, I've been lurking and reading this forum since November, and in that time I've seen a lot of trash talk from German armour fans towards the Sherman. And I have to say, none of it trumps "you lost the war."

That said, I'm not taking sides. After the Sherman I plan on doing a Tamiya Stug IV. I'm looking forward to trying Glen Phillips' technique (from the May 91 FSM) for making zimmerit with Squadron putty. If I can stretch the project over two paychecks I'd like to try Fruilmodel tracks, too.

M.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MarianLH I already have the Italeri kit, and buying another one is not in the budget this week. Maybe I should just build a 76, and do the early M4A1 another time. According to usarmymodels.com, Italy got the 76 in August of 1944. Just in time for Operation Olive?

Excellent reference site !!!!!!

QUOTE: I didn't know Tank Workshop made one, though. $16 is a lot more doable than $55--is it any good?

It's not too bad at all really. A few bubbles in the resin but looks great otherwise. Have one kicking around the workbench right now.

QUOTE: QUOTE: Originally posted by shermanfreak You'd also need an earlier version suspension set. How many different kinds of suspension were there? I thought there was just the two, the VVSS and HVSS. And that all M4A1s had the VVSS.

Those are the 2 "mainstream" suspension descriptions.
Starting with the earliest Shermans you have the M3 style as also used on the Lee / Grant series of vehicles. Then you have differences in the VVSS with changes occuring to the skip plate and return rollers. The last version has an "upswept" style as with the Italeri and Tamiya kits. Academy offers the more horizontal style with different skip plates available.

QUOTE: You know, I've been lurking and reading this forum since November, and in that time I've seen a lot of trash talk from German armour fans towards the Sherman. And I have to say, none of it trumps "you lost the war."

TOUCHE

Please don't confuse some good natured ribbing as anything more than that.
There are people here who prefer Tigers and people who prefer Shermans. There will always be some sort of competition because these are examples of combatants.
Personally, I am certainly glad beyond belief for the Sherman tank and the role it portrayed in saving the world...
Just because I don't find anything interesting in the design and believe that a lot more men would have lived if the Pershing was put into production instead, doesn't mean I wanted a different outcome to the war, trust me, I enjoy freedom.

Besides if you want to quiet a Tiger builder, just say Jabo! (P-47).

PS. Sherm, your Flames were robbed...They should be planning a parade today, not going through customs.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ausf Please don't confuse some good natured ribbing as anything more than that.

Yikes! I didn't, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I was trying to respond in kind--note there was a .

I'm sorry.


M.

No apologies necessary at all.
Glad to have another opponent
By the way, I'm in the middle of a 1/16 M4 build myself...
I just wish there were more interesting ways to finish.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ausf ... There are people here who prefer Tigers and people who prefer Shermans. ...

Then there are those that prefer the BEST tank of the war

PANTHER!

QUOTE: Originally posted by ausf PS. Sherm, your Flames were robbed...They should be planning a parade today, not going through customs.

Best team on the ice in 5 out of 6 games ..... and a series tied at 3.

Oh well ...... victory on the road in Tampa Bay !!!!!!!!

I just read through the first 10 pages of the Sherman Family Group Build thread, and now I have like six more Shermans I want to do.

It's I good thing I never broke down and got a credit card, or after this evening Resicast would own my butt.

Except Formations would already be in line first. Shermanfreak, is this what you mean by M3 suspension on a Sherman?


M.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MarianLHShermanfreak, is this what you mean by M3 suspension on a Sherman?

Yes, there are three basic types of vertical volute suspension systems (VVSS): the M3 type you linked to with the return roller directly above the bogie; the intermediate type with the return roller offset to the rear; and the late type with the return roller offset to the rear and raised slightly (upswept).

The looped skid plate on the intermediate and late bogies had at least three different variants as well. There is quite a variety of mix and matched Sherman parts out there so I've learned to never say never.

Marian - did you check out the Group Build site. It shows all the finished models .... so far.
http://members.shaw.ca/ShermanGroup/

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rob Gronovius Yes, there are three basic types of vertical volute suspension systems (VVSS): [SNIP]

Okay, I think between you and Shermanfreak I think I've got a grip on VVSS. Thanks!

This project has now morphed into three: an M4A1 76 at the Gothic Line, an Operation Torch M4A1 with the three-piece nose and M3 suspension, and a D-Day M4A1 with applique armour. This is not including other Sherman projects I already had in mind, or the ones inspired by the Sherman Family Group Build and the Resicast web site.

At this rate I'm going to be up to my ears in Shermans.

While googling VVSS yesterday I found this, which I am going to try to replicate for the 76.

QUOTE: Originally posted by shermanfreak Marian - did you check out the Group Build site. It shows all the finished models .... so far.

Only the front page so far. It seems like cheating to look at the finished models while I'm still reading the thread. Like skipping to the last page of a novel. I'm up to page 36 now--Sunday was a lazy day.

I'd probably be further along, actually, but I kept taking breaks to go drool over the Resicast catalogue some more.

Today, I'm off to buy the correct paint for my S-tank, and pick up the Sherman books.


M.

Robert's picks for books were excellent, cheap and full of info. There are other Sherman books out there too, just take a look around, you'll find one you like.

About the 3 piece differential cover, it was used in Italy until the end of the war on older Shermans (those few survivors!).. I've seen a photo of one in Germany also... (70th Tank Battalion).

About the Tiger, to quote Oddball, "It's a mother beautiful tank!"
To quote Moriarty: "cr*p!".
Yes, I'd rather have a Panther too.
About the Stuart, ain't they just the cutest?? fun to drive too!
Shermans are fun too, until you get an 88 whizzing past your brain case... while you're buttoned up!

Have fun with your build, WELCOME to the nut house armor forum, glad to have you aboard. Ask questions any time.

Ron.

QUOTE: Originally posted by claymore68 QUOTE: Originally posted by ausf ... There are people here who prefer Tigers and people who prefer Shermans. ... Then there are those that prefer the BEST tank of the war PANTHER!

& LOL !
gotta agree, from the standpoint of esthetics at least !

JABO ! do i hear the pitter patter of kitty feet ?(LOL again !)

looks like u have fodder 4 at least a half-dozen Shermans by now, MLH...
2 the forum, & have fun building ur first !

frosty

MarianLH
Looks like you're getting quite a list of Sherans there. I would like to build one of every variant but thats a LOT of Shermies!
Know what mean about that Resicast cataloge!

QUOTE: JABO ! do i hear the pitter patter of kitty feet ?(LOL again !)

WHERE!!! (As I jump out of the kitty and try to hide under the grass)

Welcome to the darkside. We're not all nuts here, but you couldn't prove it by most of us!!! lol