Do you think we are "glorifing" war?

much of the military equipment i model is in tribute to people suviving and kia. there are no winners in war only survivors and the only way to avoid war is to keep the memories fresh in our minds of just how horrific it can be. you have a good idea, show the figures at rest and in activities that are non violent. but to avoid the reality of war is to forget why we have had two wars to end all wars and many others that didnt even get classified as wars. many have died for freedoms large and small, as for me i choose to pay tribute to them in my own small way. i hope this helps in your quest for the proper answer for your son.

joe

Personally I do not look at what I build as glorifing war any more than old war photos do. For me models are like a 3-D representation of what a photo is and is another way to keep the history that has gotten the world to where it is today alive and in the memories hopfully of all that see them.

I don't feel that I am glorifying war. I believe that by building military models, I am helping to keep history alive and to pay tribute to all of those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice to keep this country free. What truly saddens me is to meet people who have no idea of how this country evolved or why we need to have tanks, ships, aircraft etc. IMO ignorance of why we have gone to war is worse than somebody who glorifies war.

As the others have already cited, no, I don't think so.

Depends. Things like band of brothers and saving pvt ryan show what war really is, but old john wayne movies make war look like paradise (at least to me). I model military models to let us not forget that it happend once. But like I said it depends. If you make a dio of a soldier thats routed and mentally messed up over his dead comrades, I don't think that glorifying war, but if you make a dio of liberators coming through the streets with wine bottles and roses, then it does make war look different. Not to say that we shouldn't model liberation dios, or anything like that, because that was part of war-liberation. But parades with roses and rainbow war scenes like that rarely happened, so modeling the happy times of war is almost like modeling a house geting hit by lightening, it rarely happens. I model to have fun with it, but I don't go out of my way to make war look glorified, just the way it was.

Hey all,

good subject. i think this needs to be addressed from time to time.

i speak for no one else and this is my opinion:

i tend to build models and dioramas where the crews are at rest, just like Bill. if i want to depict action, i build a diorama or model that strikes a ballance between action and respect. i'm not comfortable with modeling dead or dying soldier on either side of the conflict. i'm not condeming anyone who does, to each their own. i DO NOT belive in revisonist history at all, and that really isn't an issue here. i just choose to model subjects that don't depict dead soldiers, maybe moments before, but not in the act.

best regards,

joe

There was another thread on this subject in the General Discussion forum a couple weeks ago.

Bottom line answer: No, not glorifying. I'm honoring, learning, remembering, studying, commemorating, and reproducing subjects, but not glorifying!

Band of brothers is just a BS movie series. It is so far off, that I couldnt even watch it. The scene where they are near the swiss alps in rommel's I believe it was, house, and there was all of that wine, well, to bad that is restored. That place was blown up practically at the time of the war. My Grandfather was there, and the place was in shambles. He has pictures of it, as well as Hitler's house and so on. It isnt a good portrayal, and isnt as accurate as some may think. Sure, it is a good movie, but if you want the truth, I suggest watching shcindler's list, or the movie Patten. Notice those hair cuts in band of brothers. If you think for a second that they were allowed to have hair like that, you are sadly mistaken. I cant understand why they had to do that. Oh, I forgot to mention, those Willy's Jeeps...... They had a governer on them and their top speed was 35 mph. That makes M.A.S.H. bull crap too. Those guys flying around there like maniacs...... Never happened. The main story is correct, but it could have been done a lot better IMO.
As far as glorifying war? No way are we doing so. We are re-creating historical machinery that helped our country to be what it is today, not laughing at how cool it is to see a sherman blowing some soldier's head off...... We all have an inner respect for our troops of now, and the past. I think that that is why in Military modeling , there is such an emphesis on scale deail, and the fact that these models mean a bit more than just building your average AMT Chevelle.

Just my 2 cents...

Robert Foster is correct, there was a very similar thread. As in that one, noone including myself thought that modeling anyway shape or form is an act of "glorifying" war. I'm very thankful I was never involved and can only look at the people who fought with a bit of humblance at all their courage. I model because I'm fascinated in military history and the weapons used. I totally respect the combatants.

WWIISoldier, I think you should go back and do some more research....
1st MASH was never intended to be accurate. Even the director has stated that the whole series was a parody designed to make fun of the Korean war, military and policitcal leaders without disrespecting the actual Soldiers, Airman, Marines, and Sailors who actually took part in the war. Despite this, short of the actual situations portayed in the series, the show is suprisingly accurate for the time depicted. More so than some of the other crap that has some out of Hollywood
2nd Yes, Willies Jeep were off the factory floor fitted with a govenor. But Im willing to bet vital parts of my anotomy that fully 85% or more of those govenors where removed by Joes in the field the moment they hit the combat zone
3rd Band of Brothers was incredibly accurate going so far as to have WW2 veterans on the set as advisors. "the hair cuts" you've described as being not allowed... well technically your right, "not allowed" doesnt mean they didnt happen. As a soldier currently in the military I can assure you that after months or more in a combat zone, Grooming standards go from laxed to sometimes non existant. It all depends on the leadership of the unit in question and how far they want to go in being a "by the book" Soldier or one who gets the job done. A good example of this would be Mohawks, forbidden by Military grooming standards even back in WWII yet there was an entire company of Soldier I believe from the 101st that sported then....

I think that is generally why in most dioramas with figures in them , you rarely see the gore side of war depicted ,( dead or dying soldiers ) . For the most part the models have no figures at all , just the vehicles themselves . I don't think this is glorifying war anymore than having an interest in modeling russian models makes you a communist , or modeing german armor makes you a nazi supporter. Its just history , and history is interesting , ( contrary to what we thought when in high school )

I would never look upon myself as being as much knowledgeable about military history,the state of the world or whatever else topic gets talked about in these forums as so many other contributors are ,but I like to think that I know myself and what sort of a person I am.
I've had an interest in military history, planes, tanks, modelling and all that stuff for as long as I can remember.. I don't know why I've had such an ongoing hobby but I'm glad its there nonetheless. As I said, I'll never be an expert or any sort of authority but then again I don't really care. I'm not really interested in the Pacific War, more so the war in Europe. I find it much more interesting. Dunno why but there you go.
I model mostly German planes and armor. Again I don't know why, I just find them more interesting. My girlfriend can never understand why I always read military non fiction type books rather than novels,and yet she of all people knows me well enough to know that I don't go looking for blood and guts just for the sake of it.
. I enjoyed Saving Private Ryan. I could only imagine in my mind that that must truly have been what it was like. I went to see it with my Dad and a friend of his, who has no more of an interest in anything military than the average person does, and yet he seemed to gleefully embrace all the blood and guts in the opening scenes much more than I did.
I know that I'm not any sort of a warmonger. I like the fact that I know as much as I know about my chosen subject as I do.Not as much as others do but thats ok. I don't go out of my way to wish harm on anyone or to wish future wars on any race of people in the world.
There are a lot worse people in the world than those who enjoy modelling and the history behind the subjects that we model.
Hope that all made sense.Sorry for waffling on, I'll get down off my soap box now...
Jeff

"Do you think we are glorifying war?" The answer to the question seems to me to be that, as with so much else in life, it all depends on the intent with which it is done. There probably are some people out there who are seduced by the
violence and the drama and the frequent heroism involved in warfare, and we shouldn't be suprised at this considering what we know about the human psyche. I find people like these somewhat disturbing, but I've encountered no
evidence of anyone like this at FSM community. Instead, what I've found is people who are into military modeling for all the right reasons: historical interest,
relaxation, patriotism, technological interest & artistic creation. All these things
taken together are what makes modeling such a great, healthy & enjoyable hobby. It should not be tarnished by a few troubled individuals who might project
the darkness within themselves onto what is really, on the face of it, a value free
activity. It all depends on what we put ito it. Remember your Shakespear?
"There is nothing either bad nor good but that thinking makes it so."

QUOTE: Originally posted by WWIIsoldier Band of brothers is just a BS movie series. It is so far off, that I couldnt even watch it. The scene where they are near the swiss alps in rommel's I believe it was, house, and there was all of that wine, well, to bad that is restored.

What you are refering to is in Berchtesgaden in Germany near Austria. The house with the wine cellar was Goering's and I believe the film showed outside damage. Most of the damage in that area was to the SS barracks. As for Hitler's 'house', Band of Brothers shows the 'alderhost' which was a surprise birthday gift for Hitler which he hated and rarely used, only for ceremonies.
It's still there today and was considered a symbolic jewel at the time. E company of the 506th, 101st Airborne was the first to reach it.

Band of Brothers has to stand as one of the most historically accurate war films ever produced. There is detail so accurate and not even discussed, for example the new harnesses used in Holland. They show you the recruits having trouble with them, but no member had ever even seen that type until a few hours before the jump. They were American harnesses only used by the British until that point. They don't make mention of this but it shows the length they went to get everything right.
There are many more examples of this....

In my opinion no! what we do is not glorifying war but like others building a tribute and an interest in military historyand in the end it is after all a hobby some thing to help one unwind and also keep the grey matter ticking over.

To be honest, yes, I think there is a certain degree of glorification in all of this.

I've never been to war, and hopefully never will be. I tihnk that, for people like me, who've never seen it firsthand, there is a macabre fascination with the struggle of armies to prevail in battle -- a dehumanization of it due to the fact that we've never been a person frightened of death but advancing right toward it..

Note how much of the modeling is aimed at the most powerful weapons systems -- the battle winners, the premiere killers. I think there's more than a little desire to associate ourselves with that kind of power, even in miniature

For what it's worth, I don't let my fascination with war get in the way of my political beliefs. Nuff said on that, though, as this is not a political message board (and shouldn't become one).

Those Jeeps were inspected all the time. If governers were taken from the vehicle, the troops with that particular jeep would be in trouble. I should know, I have a Living Grandfather who was in charge of 50 German POW's, which were forced to inspect and rebuild wrecked Jeeps. I dont know that I can do much more research than talking to a real person who was there....... no book can compare. And the wine cellar, sorry to say, but none of that wine was there let alone the rostoration of it all. This was late 1945 and I have pictures of it, or at least I think he still does. Anyway, the Jeeps had no need to go more than 35 mph because every other military vehicle was that fast or slower. Whats the use of a Jeep and 2 sherman tanks traveling together if the Jeep is just going to take off at 60mph? There wasnt a need for it to be faster. Also, the faster soldiers would go over rough terrain, would make for more broken parts and general uneaded wear and tear.

I understand about the haircuts in the military now days and how the rules may be lax, and get totally unnoticed.... But you have to understand that WWII was much much different. Everything was much more strict. You often had to have your boots and gun polished up. Regardless of having WWII vets on set.......... A: were they ones that were even in that portion of the country to be able to offer any usefull input? B: The Director and crew have the final say anyway.

I must say that there are more acuratly portrayed movies than Band of Brothers. I must agree that it is accurate to a degree, but is only average on my scale.

I see a lot coming from the 'pop media' in the US that glorifies war and violence in general. Of course, there are tributes, such as Band of Brothers, but most of it is downright garbage (my opinion).

I model to recreate historical vehicles and aircraft whether they are civilian or military. I have an interest in our common heritage. I also like to model imaginary subjects when they suit me. I model for enjoyment and don't worry about the political ramifications... especially with historical subjects. It's the way things were / are. If others can't handle being reminded of that, I really don't care too much.

Ron

Absolutly not, just taking a snapshot of history. I'm not glorifying war any more than airliner builders glorify 9/11.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Awood23 1st MASH was never intended to be accurate. Even the director has stated that the whole series was a parody designed to make fun of the Korean war, military and policitcal leaders without disrespecting the actual Soldiers, Airman, Marines, and Sailors who actually took part in the war.

I agree with what you said about MASH, but as a minor point, it was only set in the Korean War, it was actually taking shots at War in general, and was largely inspired by the Vietnam War experience. Not that any of that takes away from your point, or the power of the series.

As for glorifying war?...I think there's an element of that in this hobby, even it's unintentional. The historical importance of such events cannot be ignored, war is a defining aspect of pretty much every country's history, and sensitivity to that reality should be encouraged.

Speaking for myself I try to treat all my suject with respect, and from what I've seen here on the various forums most everybody else does as well. For me respect is the key element, and I believe that the simple fact that the question 'are we glorifying war?' has come up and is being discussed shows that we are sensitive to the possibility that our interests could be taken to a questionable extreme.

Hi all,

I have to agree with Larry. There's a certain amount of glorification that goes with building military models. Like he said, we like to build the biggest and/or best. We build Mustangs far more than we build Brewster Buffalos. I still fail to understand the allure of WWII German Armor and Aircraft, but I suspect that people who build such kits tend to respect the technological state of the art of German equipment. The paint schemes are often pretty cool too.

However, I don't think it is war itself that is glorified, but rather the equipment of war. Mechanical things appeal a lot to guys, and less so to women, which may also help explain why fewer women participate in this hobby. Guys like that fact that you can break down a machine into a series of statistics: speed, maximum altitude, endurance, maneuverability relative to other similar planes, production totals, number of kills achieved, number shot down. These are all ways many of us use to put our models into some sort of context.

Very generally, model builders seem to be fascinated by mechanical things made for war, and their awesome potential for destruction.

Complementing this fascination with machinery is the fascination that many of us have for real war stories. We'll build models of equipment used by real people and then research their stories. I built a model of the P-51 "Detroit Miss" and then met the pilot, Bed Drew, and heard him talk about how he shot down two ME-262s in one mission. Of course this is glorifying war! I didn't even spare a thought for the two pilots of those planes as I heard Drew's story.

At one point, my wife asked me why I'm so fascinated with military history as I am, generally, quite opposed to war. I told her that in war, we see the extremes of humanity: its very worst and its very best. I hope to learn more about wars so that, maybe, we can avoid them in the future, and failing that, learn from past mistakes so that we can win our wars, and do it in a more human manner. We should be inspired by the most noble human actions during war time, and work like hell to avoid the sickening things people do when at war.

Building models can be a testament to the people who fought. It can be a way for us to learn more about what the soldiers, sailors, and airmen went through.

As the hobby has matured, and model builders have too, more diverse subjects are available. One can build cargo planes, support ships, non-fighting military vehicles, and even Brewster Buffalos. People are demanding a wider and wider scope of kit subjects because they learn more about the various types of equipment used in the various wars.

So interest in military history, a desire to create tributes to the warriors, and the admiration of the machines all lead to military model kits being far more popular than any other subject.

And yeah, it bothers me sometimes. More of us have flown in a civilian aircraft of some sort, but we still build more military planes. I think the pioneer air mail pilots are as heroic as military pilots, and they were engaged in a more constructive activity, but few kits exist of early mail planes.

I think the Gemini, Mercury, Apollo, Space Shuttle, and ISS space programs are truly profound human achievements. Yet even though these subjects are well-covered by kits, the real space section of this board is far less popular than military kit subjects.

I'm not piling on anyone either. I'm guilty of building only military airplanes too.

So, yes, my models glorify war, or at least the machines of war, to a certain extent (heck, I like war games too). I like to think I balance that by having a good understanding of the human cost of war.

Regards,

i dont think about the war aspect when i do a kit , i do aircraft because i like them , not what they did or what there used for , its like saying im not going to buy a mercedes cause hitler had one , im not going to have a vw they put engines in u-boats, i wont fly on a boeing aircraft because they made the b52, i just do them because i like them , so no your not glorifying war

Well i tend to build models to represent history to to carry on so the lay person doesnt forget. take for instence most of the vehicles and planes used in ww2 are few and very far between like only two lancaster bombers that are operational in the world it is up to us modelers to carry on history. I build and play war games to honor not glorify. Wars have built many nations and wars will continue i dont glorify but merly try to perserve history.

I was a mechanic in the army and the first thing we did was turn all the vehicles speed up as soon as they hit our Cav unit. Jeeps doing 60plus and even our old M1s would be tweaked up to the max speed we could get out of them! We even had a couple of Tanks that could do over 60 You never knew when you might need that extra speed As for things being lax look at real photo's of D-DAY and look at all the G.I.s out of uniform with Ike talking with them! No helmets, chin straps loose and not in full uniform. That could not happen now what with the caliber of N.C.O.s and Officers we now have! As for glorifying war I just like to build Armor and aircraft and have fun and educate people

WW2Soldier, Im starting to think that your source of information probably never saw front line action. In rear areas, yes think were much more strict boots highly shined, rifles polished, NCO's beating the crap out of you when you stepped out of line or even if they were in a bad mood and you were in the way. On the front, in a fox hole??? kinda hard to get a hair cut or shave with frozen water... and I gaurantee (sp) that vehicles where modified to go faster.... no it doesnt make sense to leave your armour support behind but when your moving back and forth from front lines, Rear CP's, and Battalion Aid stations. Speed was a matter of necessity and the routes were usually over unimproved roads where 50 to 60mph was not unimaginable. Vehicle inspections were the last thing on a soldiers mind when it comes to winning a war. Heck Ive even known drivers to list a vehicle as lost in combat so they didnt have to keep redispatching them.
And yes, the advisors on scene for shooting of Band Of Brother were Survivors from the actual units portayed in the series... Theres even commentaries and words of Praise for "getting it right" if it wasn't right they didnt use it.

Nope.. I think some may.. But I model because I like airplanes, ships and Cars.
And who really cares? This politically correct idea will have shop owners checking I.D.s before long. I'll bet the house on it.. Look what it's done to Nascar models..

I often asked this to myself and I feel there is no easy answer. I really like the German WWII stuff but it's not easy to explain why. One thing is, I am German and it's very fascinating to know that your grandpa (and most of the old men you meet everywhere ) have used this material in war. There are a lot of traces you can find, there are factories which made war material in the past and today they produces civil stuff, there are photos in the family albums,... you feel like within history. Building models of this stuff is one way to get informations about this past and one can build a bridge to the past. And, military stuff is more interesting than a car (for instance) in technical view. But I will not forget, this is all designed to kill humans and so it's not easy for me to find an answer.
Hope you understand what i wrote, perhaps I sometimes did'nt found the right english word.

Greeting from Germany
Matthias

Matthias,

You said it very well, and I agree with your sentiments.

Regards,

There was a topic exactly to do with this in the General Discussion forum:
http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20899
I hold to my comments made there. This is just a hobby. It is nothing more than that, even though we may wish it to be. We are merely pursuing our own interest in the form of entertainment/amusement. The fact that we are modeling technology that exists in no way has anything to do with our opinions of the moral implications of said technology.