Sherman / PanzerIV / TigerI ?'s

Panther 44

Member since
May 2003
From: The Buckeye State

Sherman / PanzerIV / TigerI ?'s

Posted by Panther 44 on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 6:10 PM

Hello All,
Hope there are some here who are willing and able to help me out.
My problem is based on the fact that I do not want to do zimmerit, so I have the following questions.
The Tiger I early saw action in Africa (if my mind serves me correctly) so,
1) Would the Tamiya early Sherman have seen action in Africa at about the same time as the Tamiya early Tiger model?
2) Would the DML Panzer IV G or F2 have seen action in Northwest Europe post June 1944? If so, would thy have had zimmerit by that time?
3) What about the Academy Panzer IV F1 / F2 / G model? Would this fall into the same category as the DML models?
Thanks to any and all who may take time to respond.
Regards,
Joe

Just remember, ignorance is no excuse for the law. - Moe

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shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 6:23 PM

I can help with part 1 ..... not straight out of the box, it would need a few modifications especially the suspension. Part of the problem is that it is not really an early Sherman but closer to a mid production. But Tamiya used some cross over parts from their other Shermans but those were late production so they need to be changed to be accurate.

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

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Panther 44

Member since
May 2003
From: The Buckeye State

Posted by Panther 44 on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 6:38 PM

Hi Robert,
Thanks for the reply.
Could you give me a simple rundown of the most obvious fixes?
When you say suspension, would I be correct in thinking it would be the M-3 type bogies?
I'm not a "rivet counter" (no offense to anyone), but I'd like to put together something that is a reasonable representation of an M-4 in African use.
Regards,
Joe

Just remember, ignorance is no excuse for the law. - Moe

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shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 7:37 PM

The M4 in N.A. was right on the cusp of many of the changes that occured, so you will see some very mixed and matched Shermans.

You could see some with the early bolted transmission cover, and others with the cast style.
Some had the early mantlet, while others had the later style that comes with the kit.
But the suspension that comes with the Tamiya kit is the late upswept return roller style. These were not available at the time of N.A. You can do a couple of things here. First off you could go M3 style or you can go with one of Academy's suspensions which have the more horizontal returns. The easiest way to get a set of these is to purchase an entire Academy kit of something like the M4A2 or the M10, then swap the suspensions. Easiest and most economical fix.

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

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tigerman

Member since
March 2003
From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA

Posted by tigerman on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 7:52 PM

Joe, I imagine some Panzer IV F's and G's would have survived into 1944. Zimmerit was applied from 1943 to late 1944.

I'm not sure of your next question, the DML and Academy models should both represent the same variations, so I guess the answer is yes. Sorry if I failed to answer your questions.

Eric

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Foster7155

Member since
July 2003
From: Pensacola, FL

Posted by Foster7155 on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 7:58 PM

I think I can help you out a bit with questions 2 and 3.

Would they be around in 1944? There were quite a few G's around in June 1944 and could have been a few F2's, but probably not more than a handful. Whereas there were 1735 Ausf G's produced, only 179 F2's were built and another 25 were converted from F1's. Additionally, production of the F2's ended in July of 42 while the G's were produced up to June of 1943.

Zimmerit? In June of 1944, yes. Zimmerit would have been used on these tanks until the order to quit using it came down in September 1944. However, most units would not have wasted the time to strip off existing Zimmerit and repaint the tank. Instead they would allow the Zimmerit to wear away natually, or at the least, wait until the tank was returned for a major upgrade.

These observations apply to any manufacturers kit of an F2/G.

Hope this helps,

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 11:57 PM

I just picked up dragons panzer IV F2 and there is no indication of zimm.Of coarse model companies are not always correct.

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Edit

Foster7155

Member since
July 2003
From: Pensacola, FL

Posted by Foster7155 on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 1:23 AM

QUOTE: Originally posted by thundergod
I just picked up dragons panzer IV F2 and there is no indication of zimm.

The reason for this is because the DML F2 is intended to be build as Afrika Korp armor. If I remember correctly, about 4 out of every 5 F2's produced were sent to the desert.

QUOTE: Originally posted by thundergod
Of coarse model companies are not always correct.

Boy, do you have that right!!! Big Smile [:D]

Robert Foster

Pensacola Modeleers

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Panther 44

Member since
May 2003
From: The Buckeye State

Posted by Panther 44 on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 4:19 PM

Hey guys,
Thanks for the responses.
Robert,
If I switched the Academy M4A2 suspension with the Tamiya, could I then use the Tamiya M4 suspension on the M4A2 and be correct .
Would the Tamiya kit be representative of one used in Italy?
tigerman,
Would that mean I can't get away without zimmerit on any of those models (F/G) in NW Europe in 1944?
Would they have been used in Italy without zimmerit?
What about the Tiger I? Would it have been used in the original configuguration in Italy?
Over all I'm just looking to try and use kits that may have seen action against one another and keep the German ones to those that would not need zimmerit.
Regards,
Joe

Just remember, ignorance is no excuse for the law. - Moe

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tigerman

Member since
March 2003
From: Rain USA, Vancouver WA

Posted by tigerman on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 5:09 PM

Well Joe, my Squadron Tiger I in action book shows a color line drawing of a Tiger in 1944 without zimmerit, but it shows one in Italy in 1944 with zimmerit. Most of the b/w pictures seem to show Tigers with zimmerit in France.

As far as the Panzers are concerned, I lack that information. My guess and only that is that there were few if any F's in France.

Eric

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Daveash

Member since
October 2003
From: St Helens, England

Posted by Daveash on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 5:34 PM

Don`t be afraid of the zimm. I am working on a Tiger 1 and have applied it to the front and back of the hull using milliput rolled out very thin and textured with a bit of styrene in my exacto knife. The method is described in another thread on this forum. This is the first time I have tried it and am pleased with the results so far. I am going to apply it to the whole model as I build it.
If you want I can post a progress pic to show you a first timers effort. My only concern is how to apply the decals later on. Do I leave a smooth bit, attempt to hand paint or buy stencils for the numbers.
Regards
Daveash

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shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 6:12 PM

Joe - yes, if you switched suspensions that would be correct.
The suspension is a problem more with the variant, than with the location whether it be Italy, N.A., or Normandy. That particular Sherman variant was seen just about everywhere, but rarely did it have the late upswept suspension on it. Doesn't mean it didn't happen though

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

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Panther 44

Member since
May 2003
From: The Buckeye State

Posted by Panther 44 on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 6:27 PM

Hello All,
Again thanks for the input.
Robert,
Would the M4A2 be correct with the M4 suspension?
tigerman,
What model ( early, mid, or late) is the Tiger in the Squadron book?
Daveash,
Really don't want to do zimmerit. My modelling skills aren't very good. Couple that with being a coward and I'll opt for the easy way out.
Oh, by the way, Robert I'm still voting to bring back the "I want you to build a Sherman" poster.
Regards,
Joe

Just remember, ignorance is no excuse for the law. - Moe

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wipw

Member since
January 2003
From: Utah - USA

Posted by wipw on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 6:36 PM

Daveash;

I used Archer Dry Transfers over my zimm. It did okay, but my zimm isn't overly deep. After they were on, I overcoated them with Tamiya clear gloss. I must have missed two of them, because when I started putting a weathering wash (oils) on, two of the turret numbers shifted. I was able to get one of them back in place okay, the other is way low. I again overcoated with clear gloss and after that, didn't have any trouble.

For the regimental symbols, some of the crews scraped off the zimm before putting them on and some put them on over it. So, you can go either way unless you're doing a specific tank.

Good luck

Bill ==========================================================

DML M4A2 Red Army ==========================================================

========================================================== -- There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness". (Author unknown)

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shermanfreak

Member since
January 2003

Posted by shermanfreak on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 7:47 PM

Joe - yes you can accurately put the Tamiya suspension on the Academy M4A2 kit.
We'll see about the Uncle Shermie pic. Wink [;)]

Happy Modelling and God Bless Robert

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 17, 2004 3:51 AM

Here's a link for a Zim article. I'm gonna try it as soon as find some miliput.
http://firestorm1.topcities.com/how/zimmerit.htm

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Daveash

Member since
October 2003
From: St Helens, England

Posted by Daveash on Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:43 AM

That is the article that I followed to apply the zimm. I also used lots of brushed on water to help it stick and to form it around various shapes on the hull.
Milliput is widely available in the UK from many model shops and handyman type stores.

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